E8. "Lay On" - Can a person be evil in their mind, or must it be in the act?
“Can a person be evil in their mind, or must it be in the act?”
Kolby, Jeremy, and Jessica discuss the ethics in the fantasy short story, “Lay On” available for download on Amazon by Vera Burris.
Transcript (By: Transcriptions Fast)
Lay On
Kolby: Hi, and welcome back again to After Dinner Conversation, short stories for long discussions. Man, I’m totally going blank. Okay.
Jeremy: I’m your host…
Kolby: I’m you co-host Kolby...
Jeremy: I’m your co-host Jeremy.
Kolby: And my co-host Jessica.
Jessica: Jessica.
Kolby: Who’s now a veteran, this is her 4th episode.
Jessica: My 4th…
Kolby: 4th episode.
Jessica: 4th and final.
Kolby: No…
(laughter)
Kolby: No, we’ve got you for a while. After Dinner Conversation is a series of short stories and podcasts to have discussions about all these stories to encourage…
(cat meow)
Kolby: That’s a lot of cat going on over there.
(laughter)
Kolby: ...to encourage deeper discussions about ethics and morality and the things that matter so you’re not just spewing out the same 3 lines you saw on some TV show.
Jessica: Or on Facebook.
Kolby: Or on Facebook, for sure.
Jessica: Where are we at?
Kolby: We are La Gattara, cat café, which is why we have cats going everywhere freaking out.
Jessica: It’s a cat lounge.
Kolby: It is a cat lounge, although they don’t serve alcohol, but they do have cats. And they’re all available for adoption or you can pay $10 and come and just pet them and then you don’t have to have all of your stuff be pushed off of countertops at home. So, it’s like all of the benefits of cat with no cat. Also, you can download these stories…
Jeremy: The cats.
Kolby: Not the cats.
(laughter)
Kolby: Man, you’re really energetic for an early morning.
Jessica: I know.
Kolby: You can download all these stories on Amazon as well as…
Jeremy: Wherever you download e-books.
Kolby: … wherever you download e-books, podcasts, YouTube. And by all means, if you’re enjoying watching these, “like” and “subscribe”, it makes us feel good, it helps us do this more. Okay. So, our story for today is “Lay On.” Jessica, you’ve got the introduction for this one, I guess?
Jeremy: And who wrote it?
Jessica: “Lay On” was written by Vera Burris. Vera Burris, sorry. Vera Burris. And this story sets us in 1969. Our two main characters are Christopher, a musician, and his strung-out girlfriend Polly. And during, I think they’re on the street, and three women approach with a lot of money and give it to Christopher and tell him he will have fortune and will be the kind of music festivals and the envy of all those who wronged you and he asked, “Who do I have to kill first?” And they say, “You’ll know.” And then they go on and Polly arranges an audition for Christopher at a local bar. When they go, the guy who runs the bar basically says, “You can play but only if the other performer is a no-show or can’t go on.” And then Christopher decides that that must be the person he needs to kills and so he pushes that person in front of, I think, a bus?
Kolby: Something, something big that kills him immediately.
Jessica: Kills him immediately. Yeah. So, he gets to play and when he plays everybody loves him and he continues to get gigs and continues to do really, really well. During that, all the witches kind of look in and follow his progress and you learn that the witches were kicked out of their coven, I guess.
Kolby: Witch’dom.
Jessica: Witch’dom. And they’re trying to earn a place back in and with Christopher, they’re hoping will provide them the way of earning their place back in by being, I think by being evil. We’re really not sure what is the criteria of getting back in but just like, making him do awful things. So, they continue to watch him and say things like, “What does a good man with power do?” And other frightening lines like that. And then near the end, he’s a big deal, I think, help me out guys, what happens with Polly?
Kolby: She leaves him, I think, because she’s an addict or something.
Jessica: Right. And he won’t continue to support her because…
Jeremy: Because he’s got all these other girls on the side.
Kolby: That’s right. He’s hooking up with a... he’s got groupies now.
Jessica: He’s got groupies now. And at end, the witches come back and ask him if he’s regretful…
Kolby: He gets put in jail.
Jessica: Yes, he gets put in jail and Polly is not. And…
Jeremy: She calls the cops on him.
Jessica: She calls the cops on him.
Kolby: I feel like Jeremy is the only one who’s done the reading this week.
(laughter)
Jessica: Hey! Hey! I did the reading.
Kolby: Uh-huh.
Jessica: I did the reading.
Kolby: Uh-huh.
Jessica: It’s more important about the witches. And then the witches, the queen of the witches, Hecate, which we love from Lady Macbeth. I mean Macbeth, you can call it Macbeth, I call it Lady Macbeth. And Hecate comes back and lets the witches back in the coven because they have earned their evil place.
Kolby: But then in the end they’re like, “We’re going to hang out and go to Woodstock or something.”
Jessica: Yes, they do. They go hang out and go to Woodstock.
Kolby: Instead.
Jessica: That’s true.
Kolby: I mean, who wouldn’t if you could go to Woodstock?
Jessica: I mean…
Kolby: I mean not the 1999 Woodstock.
Jeremy: The 1969 Woodstock.
Kolby: The 1969 Woodstock, yeah. Jessica, you have thoughts? Things you liked, didn’t like? Enjoyed, didn’t enjoy?
Jessica: I very much enjoy a witch story, so anything with witches I’m going to read. I love a good witch story. I do wonder… my feeling with the, just to take the witches perspective for a moment there, so the witches get kicked out of this coven and they got to find somebody in order to manipulate to, I guess, cause mayhem and bedlam…
Kolby: Undisclosed bedlam.
Jessica: Undisclosed bedlam, yes. And I think that following their narrative so they find this guy and they’re trying to influence him, and then to get back into this coven but then they hang out because they’re having so much fun in 1969. I don’t know. I feel like it was an awful easy win.
Kolby: For the witches?
Jessica: Yeah! It’s like…
Kolby: It’s not hard to find a wrongdoer.
Jessica: It’s not hard to find a musician wrongdoer, let’s be clear.
Jeremy: Especially they bring up the Manson murders at the same time, which presumably is a much bigger evil than whatever Christopher did. And Hecate is like, “You guys do this? He did this on his own. Nobody had to help him, so why is this special?” But she still lets him in. And I guess that millennial participated.
Kolby: Did you just say Charles Manson got a participation prize?
Jeremy: No, the witches did.
Kolby: Oh, oh
Jessica: Christopher did.
Kolby: Alright.
Jeremy: The witches in the story.
Jessica: The witches in the story got a participation ribbon for Christopher, the effort of Christopher. So, I think…
Kolby: It’s simple for you.
Jessica: I don’t know if it was simple. I would love to know what you guys think about this idea of what makes evil win? If evil, presuming that the witches are a stand-in in the story for evil…
Kolby: Which is a little big anti-witch.
Jeremy: It is. From the research that I did…
(laughter)
Jeremy: From my knowledge…
Kolby: We should turn this into a drinking game every time you say “From the research that I did.”
Jessica: Yeah.
Jeremy: That’s not how Wiccans act. But it is a modern look at witch-craft is the recent Wiccan movement which started in the 60s. So, you know,
Jessica: I think this is definitely like the witch.
Jeremy: The Christian view.
Kolby: It’s like a stand-in of evil.
Jeremy: Right.
Jessica: It is like, the Macbeth view of…
Jeremy: Of witches.
Jessica: Of witches.
Kolby: Actually, I thought it was a Joker stand-in from the Heath Ledger Joker. Like, “I just do chaos. That’s my job.” “Why?” “I don’t know, it’s just chaos, this is what I do. ”
Jessica: Oh interesting. So, you don’t see the witches as evil but witches as chaos?
Kolby: Yeah. I did.
Jessica: Oh, that’s interesting.
Kolby: Obviously, a lot of their dialogue talks about their desire to tempt the worse in us. But it seems like generally they just wanted bad things, just bad thing, just craziness afoot. There’s a reason they’re staying at Woodstock.
Jessica: Okay.
Jeremy: Is to promote heathenism…
Kolby: To promote heathenism, yeah. But certainty...
Jeremy: Or hedonism.
Jessica: I was going to say, I can see that that’s an interesting take Kolby. I didn’t think about that. I did assume it was just evil, but the idea of it just being chaos or hedonism, or whatever, attempt the worst in us is an interesting…
Kolby: What’s the thing in movies where they have a sacred object that everyone has to get?
Jeremy: The MacGuffin.
Jeremy: MacGuffin. Yeah, I feel like the witches are a little bit like a MacGuffin in like, “We just need evil”, “okay we’ll make witches.”
Jeremy: They’re just a metaphor.
Kolby: But it could have been an evil vase, it could have been a magic 8 ball, it could’ve been… they didn’t act in a way that sort of was dynamically interactive.
Jeremy: No, they’re just providing access..
Kolby: Yeah, they’re providing the catalyst to temp this person to see what this person is really like.
Jeremy: Right. “Here’s cash and you’re going to know what to do to make the best of the situation.”
Kolby: And I think that is a little bit different than Macbeth, in that in Macbeth the witches are much more. They are the cause and the effect depending on how you look at it. They tell you you’re future, but the fact that they told you, makes you now think that future is possible, and if they never would have told you, would you have done it?
Jeremy: And that’s what they do to Christopher. They tell him, “You can have fame and fortune, and you’re going to know what to do to get there.”
Jessica: Right.
Kolby: So, one of the things I did wonder about in this story was, did they do anything or were they only encouragers? They said, “You’re going to have to kill a person.”
Jessica: No, they didn’t say that.
Jeremy: They didn’t.
Jessica: He said, “Who do I have to kill?” And they said, “You’ll know.” And I think that’s an intriguing part of it to echo off what you’re saying Kolby. I’m not sure they did anything, there’s no…
Jeremy: They were just enablers, they were “let me hold your purse”.
Jessica: Let me hold your purse, yeah!
Kolby: But the whole pushing the person that may have worked out the same way with or without them, right? He’d have pushed that person in front of the vehicle, witches or no witches; it might have gotten him the gig, right?
Jessica: And what I find interesting, I don’t know if anybody else read it this way, so you’re reading the story and the witches say or he says, “Who do I have to kill?”, and the witches say, “You’ll know” and they walk into this bar and the guys going to be on stage, the first performer, I can’t remember his name, and he’s like, “Maybe I have to kill him.” It’s so quick.
Jeremy: It is super quick.
Jessica: It’s like, “Maybe I have to kill him?” And I was like, so, you know this idea of tempting the worst. Like I would like, I don’t know, a thousand signs before I push somebody in front of a bus. Not that I would push anybody.
Kolby: You would need like a big neon arrow being like, “This guy”
Jessica: “This is the way to your future”
Kolby: “In case you’re not sure”
Jeremy: You see the money sticking out of his pants.
Jessica: Yeah.
(laughter)
Jeremy: Yes, here’s your thousand signs.
(laughter)
Jessica: Right, right. So, pushing him in front of the bus came really quick but then I thought also, that might just be Christopher. Christopher is like, “Okay? This is it? Okay, I’ll do this.” And so, I would love to see a story that plays with the, if anybody wants to write for submissions…
Kolby: Which we are always accepting.
Jessica: … that wants to write a story, I would love to see something that tempts somebody in the same way, but then…
Jeremy: It’s not an easy tempt.
Jessica: I would not say it’s an easy tempt. It’s just, what if, had Christopher pushed that person in front of the bus and then it not paid out? So, then they’re like, “Oh, okay…”
Kolby: So you want to make them fake witches?
Jessica: No, I mean….
Kolby: “Oh, we didn’t mean that guy, we meant the guy to his left. Oh, you’re going to have to push another guy.”
Jessica: Right. “You’re going to have to push another guy.” Or another guy or another guy. In this story it’s clear that this is the string of chaos that they’re looking for. And it works out for Christopher but, what if it’s not working out? What if it’s this temp that doesn’t work out and then you just keep trying? Do you keep trying?
Kolby: It’s like a tragic comedy.
(laughter)
Kolby: Like, “How many people do I need to kill? All of them.”
Jeremy: Yeah, isn’t that a Cohen Brother’s movie? A Simple Plan?
Kolby: Yea, that sounds like a Cohen Brother’s movie. So, one of the things I found really interesting about this story, for me, was the idea of, is Christopher bad in that he’s done bad things, or is he bad and now he’s been giving opportunity? The three of us are sitting here, are we secretly evil we just haven’t gotten…
Jessica: Let’s be clear- there’s no secret. I am evil.
(laughter)
Kolby: Okay, in your case. Were you evil before you did anything or because I feel like, is evil in the action or is it in the mind? And even if the mind never gives choice to that action, does it still make you evil? Because there are certainly times where I’m driving a car and somebody cuts me off, I’m like, “oh, if I could get in that car with a baseball bat, I would take care of them right now.”
(Laughter)
Kolby: But luckily, they drive away before I can pull up alongside them with a baseball bat.
Jessica: You need a podcast for when you drive. Clearly.
Kolby: I need something. And so, I do wonder if, you know that saying- “if you want to know what somebody’s made of don’t give them adversity, give them power” – because….
Jeremy: Right. Absolutely.
Kolby: Because there’s a reason that kings and dictators become the worst people often because they have the ability to be the worst people.
Jessica: That’s an interesting question. In particular in the story with Christopher, he’s tempted and he immediately throws somebody in front of the bus. But, then when he gets power, he ditches Polly who was there to help him. So, there’s not even the redeeming quality there where he’s at least loyal.
Kolby: No, no, no. I think once you’ve gone evil, you’re… I think he’s entirely self-centered. And I don’t even think it’s about the music, it’s about...
Jessica: The power.
Kolby: It’s about being loved. Being loved, adored, being rich, being… and so you look, and I think this is relevant in the situation we’ve been in the last couple of years if you look at like R-Kelly, if you look at Bill Cosby, if you look at all these people who are…
Jeremy: Empowered and entitled.
Kolby: Yeah, they are empowered and entitled and they are rich and there are people who sort of fix the things that….
Jeremy: That go wrong.
Kolby: … that go wrong and it happens again and again. And over a period of time you think…
Jeremy: “I can do anything.”
Kolby: Yeah. “I can do…
Jeremy: “I can kill somebody in the street and…”
Jessica: “… and nobody would care.”
Kolby: Wow. Where’d you get that quote from I wonder?
Jeremy: I don’t know.
Kolby: Yea, but that’s exactly it right? And so the question is, when you get that ability, I think there are more Christopher’s than we would like to think. And the only thing that keeps people from doing these things, and not in all cases but in many cases, is just I’m not a bajillionare, I’m not worth a million dollars, I’m not…
Jeremy: Or there’s a process through growing up where you develop a strong moral character. And even though people can be tempted and can do wrong in doing things that they think are right. But if you don’t have that strong moral character, or that hasn’t been developed in you, I think we all fall back on selfishness.
Jessica: Okay, so walk me back just a little bit with that statement. So how does one develop a strong moral character?
Kolby: I’m going to follow up with something, how do you know you have one until you’re given power instead of adversity?
Jeremy: That’s true. I don’t know.
(laughter)
Jeremy: Personally.
Kolby: As a person that doesn’t have tons of power, yeah.
Jeremy: I think in previous episode you talked about your daughter showing her or that we should teach the consequences of what people are doing, the good and the bad of everybody, and you realize….
Jessica: Yes, when we talk about history, don’t just tell a hero; sell the whole story of that hero so they understand that everybody is a complicated mess.
Kolby: Know that even good people are complicated.
Jeremy: There are consequences to all the actions. Everything you do. So, understanding that and there’s good and bad in everything, I think helps develop the ability to choose a moral path.
Jessica: So, okay, so, I’m following you. But, one of the things I would have to say, especially with our heroes, there are lots of times when there are no consequences for all the bad they did.
Kolby: Particularly historically.
Jessica: Especially historically, especially during what we would not consider bad. Slavery, that wasn’t necessarily considered bad back then, at least by the people that were doing it. And so there weren’t consequences, so how do you teach consequences? How do you teach that moral barometer when… I mean, there are lots of people now that are doing horrible things that have no consequences to it. R-Kelly still gets record contracts. Bill Cosby, is he in jail now?
Jeremy: Yeah.
Kolby: Probably still selling records.
Jessica: Probably still selling records. Somebody once said, they didn’t know me well, so they said I had a very strong moral barometer. But they said how did you learn that? And they assumed I was raised Catholic, I am not Catholic, but I was raised Catholic, and they wondered how my daughter would be raised to have a strong moral barometer without being raised with religion. And when we talk about…
Kolby: We were texting about this last night. This drives me nuts.
Jessica: I agree.
Kolby: This idea that people think that religion provides morals and without religion you can’t have morals. And I would argue just the opposite and this is a little bit of a tangent. I would argue just the opposite that if I’m not pulling the lever because I’m afraid I’m going to get shocked, that’s not a moral, that’s a fear. So, if I follow Christianity or whatever faith I believe in, because I’m worried about someone watching and judging and scoring me, those aren’t morals, those are fears. Those are fears of retribution. Moral is, to me, when you’re like, “Look, nobody is never going to know. It’s the perfect crime. No one will ever know. But no…“
Jeremy: But it’s still wrong.
Kolby: “I’ll know.” It’s wrong to me, so it doesn’t matter at all. To me that’s morality. And so, I think Christians can be moral, but if their reason for being moral is just…
Jeremy: The fear of punishment.
Kolby: … is the fear of punishment. That’s not morality. That’s not morality. Which is why it drives me nuts that people like non-Christians or non-religious people can’t be moral. I’m like, no, they can only be moral because they don’t believe there is a punishment waiting for them except for their own self-identity and their disappointment in themselves and their choices.”
Jessica: I totally agree. That’s a nice rant. Good job.
Kolby: Thank you. I’ve been storing that one up for a while.
(laughter)
Jeremy: Just for this story.
Kolby: Just for… that’s part of the reason for these podcasts, right? It’s the idea that you can have these conversations about the ethics and morals of these characters and these things they’re doing and choice they’re making and it’s about…. and I think the way sometimes you develop those morals, one: you just inherit them from your parents until you can judge them, but also I think the issue of just, you live life and you’d like, “wow, I was treated that way and I don’t like it.”
Jeremy: And I treated other people this way and now I have to deal with the consequences of that.
Kolby: Right. And now that’s I’m seeing it for the third time, I’m like, “Look, I’m not doing this because it is or isn’t, I’m doing it because it’s not just who I choose to be because I know what it’s like to be the kid that’s taunted on the playground or…”
Jessica: Or that kid that excluded.
Kolby: Or the kid that’s fat shamed or teased about being LGBTQ or whatever the case. And I think the interesting thing about this story, see the way I tied it all together, is if you take someone who’s in their, I assume the musician’s late teens/early 20s, who’s living on the street, who’s drug addicted or at least has a drug addicted girlfriend, and you say “Here is everything.” I am terribly disappointed that he just goes in this spiral of evil, but I am not the least bit surprised. And I think that he is the norm and not the exception.
Jessica: Really? I think I disagree. I’m a humanistic at heart. I know. So evil and still so humanist.
(laughter)
Jessica: I think it’s interesting, I think Christopher’s spiral can be indicative of some people and especially we can talk forever about Christopher’s decision and why he made the choices and how those choices are not necessarily choices. You’re living on the street, everything is horrible, and somebody says “You can have all the money you want if you just do this one thing…” it’s really hard to say not to that when life is so terrible.
Kolby: Particularly if nobody’s ever… if you’ve never had the experiences and sort of mentors explain to you why this is the wrong choice.
Jessica: I don’t know, I mean, I think society explains to you why it’s not he right choice. It’s not like Christopher pushed that kid in front of the bus and was like, “Oh, I’m sure everybody will be okay with this.”
Kolby: That’s true. I mean, laws are the codification of the community morality.
Jessica: And I think we can extend this metaphor into larger… like, this is why crime is committed in terrible neighborhoods because there is no way out unless we do this thing. What surprises me about Christopher’s character and what I would probably argue is that, there was no shame spiral, there was no…
Kolby: He doesn’t die realizing like, oh…
Jeremy: Right. We don’t really get Christopher’s perspective.
Jessica: That’s true.
Kolby: We get the witches perspective.
Jessica: And what I will say is, I think it would be… I think more people are apt to push the person in front of the bus to get out of a terrible situation and then feel shame and regret and not just fear but like, just terrible sadness, but also try to receive redemption in other ways. And I think that’s why the witches get back into the coven is that Christopher didn’t go that route. He didn’t have the “Okay, I’m now in a place of power where I have solved my issues and I can be a better person.”
Kolby: “I can lay off the horrible because now I can eat.”
Jessica: Right. “Now I can eat. Now my Maslow’s pyramid of hierarchy of being an okay human being is taken care of, so now I can work on self enlightenment.”
Kolby: So, do you put these into two tiers of issue? Like, one is the “I need, and so I have to steal or do whatever”, versus “I live without fear and so I do as I choose.”
Jessica: Right. Right.
Jeremy: I would agree with that.
Jessica: Yeah, I think that’s true. And we see a little bit of Christopher’s character in the very beginning where he’s trying to get enough money for Polly to get a fix. This isn’t just him feeding himself; this is him trying to take care of someone else.
Kolby: You ready to have your mind blown? I’m about to blow your mind.
Jessica: Blow my mind.
(laughter)
Kolby: What if...
Jessica: What if.
Kolby: ...they’re actually the same in that in the beginning for Christopher, in the beginning the issues are I’m hungry, I’m whatever, I’m whatever, I want people to like me but the real issue is I don’t like myself. I don’t feel loved. I have a hole in me I can’t fill. Once that is in him, whether you’ve got a little bit of money or a lot of money or a couple of groupies or a lot of groupies or a couple people to sleep with you or a hundred of people to sleep with you, that hole never gets filled. That’s the sort of Maslow’s pyramid where, yes, you’ve got food and shelter, but what you don’t have is a sense of love.
Jeremy: Emotional support.
Kolby: Emotional support and love and all those things. You want to talk about a list of people that are not every going to get married? Rockstars because that hole is still not filled in the way it can be and so, he’s continuing to try and meet his sort of pyramid of needs but he doesn’t understand that money and groupies is not the thing that fits, that sort of fills the last spot in the pyramid. Boom.
Jessica: It did not blow my mind.
Kolby: It did not blow your mind?
Jessica: Sorry.
Jeremy: But again, does that come down to choice? That comes down to a choice where what would fill the hole is enlightenment and...
Kolby: Yoga.
Jessica: Right. Sting.
Jeremy: ... becoming a good person at that point.
(laughter)
Kolby: So, yes, so here’s one I’m always amazed by, and I’m broad brush stroking this right? So, Harrison Ford is a carpenter and gets picked up for a couple of movies and Star Wars and Indiana Jones and all these things. Then he becomes, at one point, he had starred in like 7 of the 10 highest grossing movies at one point in like 1989 or something. And what does he do? He marries Calista Flockhart or whatever her name is. And goes to a ranch in Wyoming where he just lives. Right? And that’s it. And he does a few movies once in a while that are pretty mediocre but he’s full. That to me is... that’s our person that could’ve been Christopher because he’s literally Han Solo. That guy is not hurting for lady friends or money or jobs or anything. And he’s like, “no, I’m perfectly happy learning to fly a Cessna, living in Wyoming, and doing cowboy stuff.” That to me, is what you wish Christopher were. A person, maybe that they don’t have to remove themselves from society, but that they understood that I am enough without the fact that I’m Han Solo or I’m whatever.
Jessica: Yes. I think you’re correct in that Christopher has a need greater than Maslow’s pyramid and that is what makes him continue to be such a jerk for the rest of the story.
Kolby: Right. He never has enough. He never has enough, where he’s like, “Maybe I should go to a cancer shelter dressed up as Iron Man or whatever.
Jeremy: And is this why they choose him?
Jessica: Oh, Yes! Okay.
Kolby: That’s an interesting question.
Jessica: Oh, now I get it. Yes. And that’s why he gets back, why they get back in, is that they can pick out that.
Jeremy: And enable the...
Jessica: The, yes.
Kolby: ... the worst in a person who’s unable to fill that worst.
Jessica: Yes. Or, you know prevent them from finding the people that would fill that.
Kolby: Yeah. I’m going to wrap this up after one last question. I’m going to give it to you Jeremy since you’ve been a little bit quieter on this one. Do you think the witches are evil or do you think the person that sort of hands you the machete evil or is it just a machete and you’re the one that chooses to make it a tool?
Jeremy: Morally ambiguous for sure. It depends, again, what are their goals? Is it really to foster evil? Then yes, I would say they are evil in that goal. It isn’t just a machete, it’s let me hold your purse, here’s a machete.
Kolby: Yea, here’s the reason I bring it up is particularly the climate we have right now, there are some that would argue that words are the equivalent of handing someone a machete. By telling someone it’s okay to hate, it’s okay to dislike, it’s okay to be xenophobic, it’s okay, that you’re metaphorically putting that machete in many people’s hands. And some of them may never choose to swing that machete, but you are at the very least giving them the green light to have the machete.
Jeremy: Exactly. You know, who do I have to kill? You’ll know.
Kolby: You’ll know. Who do I have to hate? You’ll know.
Jeremy: And it’s really in that statement they’re enabling him to be his worst.
Jessica: And I would argue that the witches are maybe just a little bit different than the idea that words are the machete in that, I think, if...
Kolby: They’re a little more encouraging.
Jessica: Well, I would say is the witches are enabling one person. I think if we wanted to see a truer, at least a truer metaphor, if the witches were making it normal that we push people in front of busses, that is the words in our society. Being able to say, “Yes, these words are terrible but also we’re not going to judge you if you use them. We’re not going to judge you if you push people in front of busses. Go for it.” That is where the metaphor becomes more parallel.
Kolby: Yea, that’s fair. You have been listening to After Dinner Conversation with myself Kolby and Jeremy and Jessica. We were talking about “Lay On.” If you enjoyed this story and haven’t read it yet, you can get it on Amazon as an e-book, you can go to the website Afterdinnerconversation.com. If you enjoyed this podcast please “like” or “Subscribe”. It’ll make us happy and be able to do more of these. And once again we are at La Gattara where they have cats that are available for adoption for $20, $30 or whatever. Or you can just pay $10 and come hang out with cats and they have Wi-FI and why buy a $10 espresso so you can use their Wi-Fi when you could perfectly well hang out with cats and use their Wi-Fi and there are cats.
Jessica: Bring your own espresso. You make it the way you want it anyway.
Kolby: Bring your own espresso. Whatev. And if you have a story idea like this in your head, you’ve got your narrative version of the trolley problem, then email it into us from our website afterdinnerconversation.com and we will take a look at it, and if it’s good enough, yours will be one of the ones that we discuss here. Thank you.
