E7. "Are You Him?" - If someone is crying, are you the kind of person that would stop?

“If someone is crying, are you the kind of person that would stop?”

Kolby, Jeremy, and Jessica discuss the ethics in the short story, “Are You Him?” available for download on Amazon by John Sheirer.

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Transcripts (By: Transcriptions Fast)

Are You Him

Kolby: Hello and welcome back to After Dinner Conversation, short stories for long conversations. So, all the things that we do each week, you can do with your friends. You read stories, you think about them, you discuss them, you argue over it, ideally maybe you have an adult beverage, you try not to end a friendship over it...

Jessica: Making no promises.

Kolby: Making no promises. And at the end of the day you’ve learned a little bit about yourself and the way you think and why you think what you think, which is really the goal, whatever that may be for you. After Dinner Conversation stories are available on Amazon for download. They’re also... you can catch the newer ones at our website Afterdinnerconversation.com. If you’re enjoying this podcast or YouTube tube video, you can “like” and “subscribe”. That would make us very happy. We are at, once again for our 5th episode, 6th episode? I don’t know, we’re pretty far in now, 7th episode, a ways? Who knows? We are at La Gattara.

Jeremy: La Gattara.

Kolby: La Gattara. And all of these cats are up for adoption. This one in the video...

Jeremy: This is Hemmingway.

Kolby: If you’re watching the video, it’s Hemmingway with a bowtie.

Jessica: Hemmingway is so cute!

Kolby: Because pretty much every cat with a bowtie is pretty awesome. So, if you don’t want to adopt a cat but you just want to visit cats, you can also come by and for like $10 they’ll let you come and hang out. And they do...

Jeremy: It’s a lounge, not a café.

Kolby: Yeah, and they also have special nights where they have yoga and bingo nights and movies nights and all sorts of stuff.

Jessica: And hang out with these adorable cats.

Kolby: So, yea, if you’re not ready to commit to a cat, you can just visit a cat.

(cat jumps on table, stands in front of camera)

(laughter)

Kolby: Or you can have a cat who blocks your camera.

Jeremy: Hi.

Kolby: Hey down front, hey down front. There you go.

Jeremy: There you go.

(laughter)

Kolby: Okay, so the story, or, I’m Kolby....

(bell ringing)

(laughter)

Kolby: Kolby your host...

(laughter)

Jessica: Are you going to bleep that out in post?

Kolby: I’m going to.

Jeremy: Yes.

Kolby: I’m Kolby your host...

Jeremy: And I’m Jeremy.

Kolby: ... And I’m here with co-host Jeremy and Jessica.

Jessica: Hello.

Kolby:  And lots of cats who are hearing us who are really excited. There’s no way that camera is going to stay up there.

(cat is in front of camera, then jumps off)

(laughter)

Kolby: We’ll see how that goes. In any rate, our story today is “Are You Him?”

Jeremy: By John Sheirer.

Kolby: By John Sheirer, yeah. And Jessica, you got picked to do the...

Jeremy: Nope.

Jessica: No.

Kolby: That’s right, Jeremy’s got his... oh my gosh....

(laughter)

Jeremy: This was a long story. So, it’s a long summary.

Kolby: So, Jeremy....

Jessica: Jeremy is amazing at summaries and the rest of us are terrible.

Kolby: Jeremy is setting the bar for summaries.

Jessica: Yes.

Kolby: So, if you haven’t read the story, ideally you would read the story before you listen to the podcast so you would know what we’re talking about. But Jeremy has taken it upon himself to give you a little summary of it, so in the event you don’t have the time to read it...

Jeremy: You’ll know what we’re talking about.

Kolby: Yeah. You can sort of visit anyway and tune in. Alright, so Jeremy, go ahead.

Jeremy: Alright. So, the story opens on our protagonist, Arthur, in the middle of his morning walk to work. After picking up his coffee, the color of which establishes that our protagonist is black, he notices a young woman sitting on a stoop and crying down a side street. Prompted by memories of his own daughter distressed as a teen he finds himself moving towards her to offer aid. After a moment of being startled, the woman realizing that Arthur’s not a threat returns to her sobbing. Arthur addresses the girl, assumes she’s a college student and is probably crying over a romantic breakup. This leads him to several paragraphs of exposition where Arthur provides his own romantic back-story. Arthur married his childhood sweetheart at 18 and after a tour in the army, he and his wife Donna, bought a house down the street from their childhood homes and turned their started jobs into successful mid-level manager careers, fully establishing that Arthur is not a sexual predator in this scenario of middle aged man approaches vulnerable young woman.

(laughter)

Jeremy: Arthur decides to sit next to the girl on the stoop, belatedly asked for permission when she stiffens and asked if she’s okay or wants to talk or that he’ll just sit with her for a few minutes until she feels better. After a couple of minutes of quiet sitting, Arthur notices two white men walk by and that one of them notices the situation: a large black man sitting next to a small white woman in the semi-hidden space. The white man continues on, Arthur guessing that their appearance, his middle-aged and well dressed, hers, their voluntarily not in immediate jeopardy, seemed to not alarm him enough to cause a confrontation. Arthur’s concern though, and mentally goes through possible scenarios of what if he called 9-1-1, which takes him through past memories of racially profiling and how times were and how times are changing and that this was happening to him less frequently and how being a big black guy sometimes had its advantages. But, in this scenario...

Kolby: That’s his quote. His big quote-unquote, big black guy. That’s the phrase he uses.

Jeremy: So, these realizations prompts Arthur to stand up and prepare to leave and at this point the girl has mostly stopped crying and meeting his eyes offers that she just received a call that her dad unexpectedly had died earlier that morning. She asks if Arthur is her dad, come to sit with her one last time to let her know that everything would be okay. And he says he doesn’t know and then the girl thanks him if he has a daughter and then tells Arthur that she is lucky to have him. So, Arthur and the girl part ways and Arthur and pauses to text his daughter a few essential words that needed to be said right at that moment, feelings that he resolved to express to her more often, and then heads to work.

Jessica: Good summary.

Jeremy: Thank you.

Kolby: Good summary. Jessica?

Jessica: Yes?

Kolby: What’d you think? Things that stuck out or jumped out you liked, didn’t like?

Jessica: So, I think probably, the thing that I liked the most was, I felt, well, I did not expect that the woman who was crying on the stoop for her loss to be her dad. And I think the protagonist goes through some scenarios that are related to romantic relationships.

Jeremy: And this is the author of the story really pushing you in this direction.

Jessica: Right.

Kolby: And very subtle good ways, right?

Jeremy: Yeah.

Kolby: It’s a very soft hand.

Jessica: But I also think it’s definitely one that, you know, if we saw somebody crying on a stoop, we would, especially...

Kolby: Near a college.

Jessica: ... a young white girl or a young white woman, we would assume that it is probably a romantic relationship.

Kolby: Because what else could white women have to cry about?

Jessica: Right. Exactly. And I did love that she asked if he was her dad. I just very much enjoyed that moment. And I wondered for myself, if presented in that situation, how would I have answered that. I love that he says, “no” and then he says, “I don’t know”. I love that because I think it says a little bit about the protagonist in the story and a little bit about his belief system or…

Kolby: It mentioned he goes to church. Him and his wife go.

Jessica: I just enjoyed that part of the story. It was very unexpected. It was a very soft and tender twist for me and I think it’s just very pretty. I liked that part of the story.

Jeremy: I liked the story; how well-written the story is; how well the author brings you back and forth between his internal memories and the events that are actually happening in the story. That the transitions are smooth and very well done.

Kolby: I thought from a writing stand point, this is probably just technically the best writing that we’ve probably read so far. It was just so smooth. It was just so much craft to it.

Jeremy: Right. And how the protagonist is really concerned about all these things, and then you see the girl is completely in a different place. It’s not romantic, she’s having this deep existential problem….

Kolby: …these sorts of parallel processes going on. She’s thinking about her dad and he’s having this whole parallel….

Jeremy: Right. It’s really nice.

Jessica: From a writing background, especially when I’m critiquing a story or looking at a story, one of the things that my first checkbox is how has the narrator changed from the beginning to the end of the story. And if they haven’t changed, I have some doubts if it’s a short story or if it’s a vignette. If it’s just a snap shot of their life. And I do feel, in this, that the protagonist does change from the beginning to the end. He texts his daughter something that needs to be said. It was not just him being a good Samaritan, and he sits down on the stoop and look how good I was to this morning.

Kolby: He’s having a moment too by the end.

Jessica: He is. And I think, I forgot Hemingway was here.

(laughter)

Kolby: Because this is the first non-spastic cat we’ve had. This is the one you’re going to adopt.

Jessica: I can’t. My cat per square foot, I’m at my max.

Kolby: Two cats, their friends. Three cats, you’re a cat lady.

Jessica: Absolutely. So, I very much enjoyed that. And I didn’t expect it when I started.

Jeremy: Yes, exactly.

Jessica: And the fact that it kind of evolved that way was a really nice, a very subtle, as Kolby said, a very subtle story.

Kolby: I thought, so for me, I thought it was the strongest craft we’ve seen in a story yet, which I was really excited about to read. I thought the character, the main guy Arthur, I thought his views on race, I thought, were really complex in a good way. In a realistic way, which I was really interested to see because he is not the T.V. nighttime stereotype African American or black man. He’s a guy who went into the military, went on a G.I. bill, married his high school sweetheart, probably never dated, just dated the one girl and married her, he mentions that he’s saving up to get his daughter a car for a graduation present. And yet, he still experiences racism and he understands it and how he has to take it into account with his interactions with society. And I think that was interesting. And yet, he even says, “I inherently think all people are good, I think police officers are generally good with a few bad ones, I’ve experienced driving while black but I think that’s not the case.” But yet he is also very much aware is this person going to call 9-1-1 on me? Is this person, their understanding my attire that I’m dressed in a suit, and so I’m not threatening, and so he very much understand the racist world that he lives in, and yet doesn’t seem to harbor a great deal of animosity about it, which I don’t know how authentic that is, but it certainly read in a very intricate way that I really appreciated.

Jessica: It was definitely a complex way.

Kolby: I also think it made him really strong character because you realize that by stopping and talking to this woman, he’s not just doing something nice, he’s doing something nice at peril.

Jessica: Yes!

Kolby: As oppose to if you or I were to stop to talk to someone that was crying, we wouldn’t think, like…

Jeremy: … we’re at risk in the same way.

Kolby: Right. And I wearing good enough clothes that the person isn’t going to think I’m going to try to do something? Am I old enough that I no longer seem threatening, like a quote-unquote big black man? We don’t have to take in this large calculation before making the most basic human choice.

Jessica: Yes. And just to clarify for the podcast listening that are audio only, we are three white people sitting around a table with a bunch of cats.

Kolby: Yeah, that are black and white.

(laughter)

Jessica: But yes. I think the way the story was written, I think it showed the subtle, almost like an internal view of microaggressions and how they shape how you interact with the world on a day to day basis. Which is probably not something that most people who are not of color would know happens every single day.

Kolby: And they deal with every single day.

Jessica: Right.

Kolby: And the accumulative effect on how you interact with the world.

Jessica: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Kolby: And I think that’s what makes this character so angelic in a way is that he’s aware of all of it, but somehow refuses to internalize it in the same way a person would because that’s just the way it goes. One of things I also thought, it reminded me of another story I read, it was just a small part of the story, where a black man and a white man are walking in the south together, and a white woman comes out of a bar drunk and she’s really, like, fall down drunk, and she starts talking to everybody, and the black man immediately crosses the street, and the white guy chases after him. And he’s like, “why did you do that?” And he’s like, “well, black guy, white woman” and this was the 1960s when the story takes place, “if she falls on me, if something happens, if something happens to her…”

Jeremy: It’s absolutely all his fault.

Kolby: “… it’s all on me. So, I need to remove myself from that situation.” And the white person’s response was, “that’s pretty fast thinking” and the black character’s response was, “it’s just habit. I’ve been black my whole life.” It’s not fast thinking, it’s internalized instinct.

Jeremy: Ingrained behavior.

Kolby: And I thought this was a really good story to show how all those microaggressions and all those ways get internalized and how, just without even thinking about it, how you’re figuring that stuff out.

Jeremy: And the mental paths that it pushes him down, where previously in the first part of the story, he’s really thinking about his daughter in all the this and what possibilities of what this woman is going through and then as soon as there’s this brief moment with the people that walk by, the whole tone of the story changes and now he’s thinking about the potential situation that he’s in.

Kolby: And it’s immediate.

Jeremy: It’s immediate.

Kolby: Right. Because he’s been doing it his whole life.

Jessica: And in the writing one of the things I really enjoyed, was when the white dudes walk by, it’s a micro-second in their stride, it’s this pause that I don’t remember the phrasing that the writer used, and I’ve seen that moment, you’ve seen that moment before.

Kolby: When someone is doing a flash assessment of the situation.

Jessica: Yeah. And as a woman, if I walked by that alley, I would absolutely do the same. Flash assessment. Woman sitting on a step in an alley with another man…

Jeremy: … what’s going on, she looks in distress potentially.

Jessica: She’s in distress…

Kolby: Is she safe?

Jessica: Is she safe? Do I need to make eye contact? I think for women, there’s a lot of things that happen in that micro-second. So, yea, I think it’s a really good internalization event of that society.

Kolby: The conversation I wanted to have after reading it, and I think it’s because it’s a character that’s so 3 dimensional, I feel like I could talk to the person, I really wanted to have a long conversation about, “why aren’t you angrier?” or “how is it this doesn’t bother you?”, “how is it…?” And one of the parts, he talks about, “I see people who kneel, the football players that don’t kneel for the national anthem, and I don’t do it but I understand why they do.” And its like, of course you understand it! It’s not like you’re immune. You’re seeing all these things, and you’re describing all these experiences you have, and yet you’re not kneeling. And I’m like, “why aren’t you?” And not that I’m judging the person, everyone makes their own choices, but I feel like…

Jeremy: You’re wondering what is it then what’s making him make this choice?

Kolby: I could comfortably have an hour conversation with this guy about how he’s come to all of these conclusions when other people come to different conclusions. He even mentions it’s easier going to the mall with a white friend because you don’t get followed around as much.

Jeremy: By security.

Kolby: You don’t get followed by security.

Jessica: I think it goes back to perhaps, and perhaps this contributes to our greater discussion of a deeper conversation about the story, taking this story and then turning to two people that we don’t necessarily understand why they react the way they do. It’s very easy to judge people by the actions kneeling or not, standing for the pledge of allegiance or not, signing up for the military or not, and to have that discussion. I grew up in a very poor part of the United States, I know Jeremy did as well, and I know that lots of people signed up for military service to get out of it, but there were a lot of us that didn’t.

Jeremy: A lot of people that stayed.

Jessica: And a lot of people who stayed in that poor area, and my gut instinct is, “oh my god, get out! Why haven’t you gotten out?” But there’s lot of things that contribute to that person’s internal dialogue of how they deal with the world. And I think this is a glimpse into something we don’t experience, so that maybe we can grow a little bit of empathy. But, then to try and take that and grow a little empathy where is isn’t a story.

Kolby: So, I’m pretty sure Jeremy knows this, I don’t know if Jessica does, so obviously I was in the Peace Corps and I was in Mozambique, and literally the directions to my house, the way they gave it to people was “drive down the EN 1, which is the only freeway, the only paved main road, until you get to kilometer marker 137, pull over to the side of the road, wait until you see somebody, and then ask them where the white guy lives.”

(laughter)

Kolby: Because I lived back in the bush, so you couldn’t really find my house. You can’t be like, “hey take this dirt path.”

Jeremy: There were no GPS.

Kolby: Yea, there’s no GPS at the time.

Jeremy: None of the streets have names.

Kolby: So, you literally get off the public transportation because you just flag then down and tell them when you want to get off. Kilometer 137, where’s the white guy live. And everyone knows where the white guy lives because I’m the only white guy in this African village. I also have a clear memory of, I think it was “Molungo (sp?)” I don’t even know if it’s a derogatory term, it’s just what everyone called me. Like, “the white guy.” Or when I lived in China, we were always, it translated to foreigner, but it literally meant outsider, was the way people would be like, “whatever, outsider, outsider, outsider.” I just remembered thinking, “oh, every day forever huh? You get this every day?” And the main thing I took away from it, and then I’ll stop my little thing, I was amazed in some ways, and I’m not saying this is similar to the American experience or not, how quickly I forgot I looked different because I was surrounded by nothing from Africans. Like, not African Americans, but Africans, day in and day out, month after month, years, and then I’d be walking down the street and I’d see a white guy. I’d be like, “hey, check out the white guy!”

(laughter)

Kolby: My friend would be like, “You’re the white guy.”

(laughter)

Kolby: I’m like, “oh my god, you’re right! I totally forgot!”

(laughter)

Kolby: “I totally forgot I’m the white guy!” Just because, I would see it and I would just, “yea, this is where I am.”

Jessica: And I think that also speaks to an experience where, and I’m making an assumption here but considering your role there, is that the white guy was not derogatory.

Kolby: No. There wasn’t a racial bias. I had a very privileged spot. Television shows didn’t show how I rob everybody and blah blah blah.

Jessica: And so, you got to operate in this idea of, “yea, I got to forget about my race because everybody loved me.”

Kolby: It’s like having a British accent in America.

Jessica: Absolutely. You can be a serial killer, I’ll still have a crush on you.

Kolby: Because you got a British accent.

Jessica: right.

(laughter)

Jessica: So, I think it’s a little…

Kolby: That’s great point. I did not have a similar experience. You’re right.

Jessica: But I think you would have remembered you were white if every day you were made to think, “oh, you’re white and you’re different and that’s a bad thing.” And then when that white guy walked down the street, your response would’ve been like, “(deep breath in) I fear for that white guy” as a white guy, and also is that a bad thing?

Kolby: Oddly enough, the guys who had it the hardest, and then we’ll get back to the story, is actually not the white American’s in Mozambique, it was the African American’s in Mozambique because they were lighter skinned. And so, the African’s were like, “what’s up with the lighter skin?” And the white people were like, “you’re a black guy, we have already got all the prejudices and so…”

Jessica: And that does speak to a lot of the biracial experiences in America.

Kolby: Going back to the story, did either of you pause or did you have any questions about the assumptions that he was making about her? He talks about what could a white girl possibly have a problem about? Only a boy. And he’s wrong. His prejudice, I guess you could say for lack of a better term, about her issues are entirely not correct.

Jeremy: That’s his experience with white privilege, and that’s his stereotype.

Kolby: That they couldn’t have anything to worry about.

Jessica: And although, I will say it’s not harmful.

Kolby: Right. It wasn’t a negative stereotype.

Jessica: It’s just a stereotype. I also find it, it’s one of those things as a woman, I always notice when the word “girl” is substituted for woman. Like in the questions, in the discussion questions at the end, it discusses about the girl and I’m like, “hmm, it’s not a girl, she’s a woman.” It was very well established by the end of the story that she was old enough to be called a woman. But it is something that happens with women all the time, is that we are called “girls”. And I do it myself, it’s a society thing, but it is a very interesting… it then makes the assumption “everything is not negated, but lessened.”

Kolby: Your problems can’t be complicated if you’re a girl.

Jessica: Correct.

Kolby: Yeah, and that is absolutely not true in the story or in life.

Jeremy: And I think I did that in the synopsis too, it was call her a woman as opposed to a girl at some point.

Jessica: Yes, I noticed it.

Kolby: That’s why you’re still sitting at the table. Didn’t get clobbered.

(laughter)

Jessica: It’s something, I think, is part to that whole stereotype you’re alluding to is…

Kolby: There’re other stereotypes going on here, not just the ones going against him.

Jessica: Right. But, in general, that’s not to say inf… what’s the word… infantilizing... haha! Infantilizing women does have negative consequences, but I will say, I think nobody wins in a who has it…

Kolby: Who has it worse.

Jessica: Who has it worse, right? But I think that, it is a stereotype he came in with but he also didn’t act on that stereotype. I don’t know. I think it’s all part of recognizing bias.

Kolby: One of the thigs she asks him, the title of the thing is “Are You Him?” Do you think… I think she says, “are you my father, is an angel?” Which the implication is are you an angel? I, first of all thought it was a great title for the story, but I also thought it asked… in a way it asked an interesting question, of course not literally, he’s not literally her father come back from the dead, but in the sense of is he a kind of angel? I was kind of like, “—ish.” I felt very -ish about that, like, “yeah, in a way you kind of are her dad.” 

Jeremy: Exactly. And you are this visiting angel to do exactly what she needed at that time.

Kolby: It wouldn’t have served the story, but it would’ve been great if he’d been like, “yeah.”

(laughter)

Kolby: “By the way, the cure for blindness and a million dollars are buried under the house, start digging.” Then just gets up and walks away.

(laughter)

Jessica: Well and I thought in that idea of how would I answer? My first thought was would I have just said yes? This woman needs it. She needs it to be yes. She needs her father to come and sit with her, but then it’s super awkward the next time they meet in a coffee shop.

(laughter)

Jessica: Like, “no, not right now, I’m not your dad.”

Kolby: Like, “Right now I’m just putting air in my tires, I’m shopping for underwear I don’t need to have this moment”.

Jessica: So, I think it was a perfect answer for him to say, “no, I don’t know, I don’t think so.” I think that that’s beautiful. Because maybe he doesn’t know? Maybe. We see that he comes from a religious background, perhaps he believes that he was sent to sit on this stoop for a reason?

Kolby: And it talks about his religious background. I was a little jealous of his family. This is not necessarily related to our questions. He is the most perfect dad. If I had any complaint at all about the story, and this is low level complaint, he is a flawless human being.

Jessica: So, I wondered, did the author do that specifically so that white people reading it would not be thrown off?

Kolby: They wouldn’t look for bait of, “oh, he’s got other motivation”. Yeah.

Jeremy: Possibly.

Jessica: I worry that, not that I worry that the author did this, but I worry white readers would be thrown off by it and therefor…

Kolby: Even by the fact that she mentions it, that she was pretty. 

Jessica: Or had his background been that he dated a ton, or was divorced, or had a bad relationship with his daughter.

Jeremy: Suddenly there’s these other motivations that are potentially…

Kolby: Even if the entire story happened the same way, when he got up and left, you’re like, “I bet… I know…” You start wondering.

Jessica: Yeah. And I worry that. And what I’m trying to say is, is it necessary that we can only, as white readers, we can only read flawless black characters? And if that’s the case, gosh- we…

Jeremy: Have a lot of work to do.

Kolby: A long way to go.

Jessica: have a long way to go. So much work to do. Because that’s real sad. We definitely would have not taken a second glance if it was a white dude that was sitting on a stoop with her and was divorced and was…

Jeremy: How would the story would have been if his thoughts are…?

Kolby: Presidential elections much?

(laughter)

Jeremy: No. How would the story would have read if while he’s having these thoughts of sitting next to her, they’re thought of “how do I hit on her?”

Jessica: Right.

Kolby: Then that would’ve hit on every stereotype of every thing that ever would of…

Jeremy: And what would the differences have been if this was a white guy, and this is what he’s thinking? A white middle-aged guy. Yes, there are all these other stereotypes, but how would that have affected this ending, where that’s not why she thought he was there?

Jessica: Yeah, totally. And even if, another interesting question to ask about this, all this internal dialogue that happens, all this internal backstory that happens, she is never privy too. But how would, us as a reader, had he been thinking about when he can ask her out? And nothing else happens in the story externally, how would we, as a reader, walked away from that story? It would have been a much different experience.

Kolby: I also think it would have been a different experience also if we’d gotten the entire story from her perspective instead of his perspective. Because one of the things that makes this character flawless, is as he’s interacting with her, we’re getting the flashbacks of the soccer practice, and the military experience, and the married your sweetheart, so we know his perfect intent when she does not.

Jessica: Correct.

Kolby: She just knows she’s having a bad day and he comes and hangs out.  And so, from her perspective, it would have been, we as readers, maybe would have superimposed because of our own biases ill intent that by seeing it from his perspective, we know is not there.

Jessica: Right.

Jeremy: That’s a good point.

Jessica: I also think about does she think he’s an angel because dudes come and sitting next to her?

Kolby: Morgan Freeman. Because Morgan Freeman always plays God.

(laughter)

Kolby: So of course, if an angel is going to come, they got to look like Morgan Freeman.

(laughter)

Jessica: I was going to say some dude that just doesn’t hit, suddenly is an angel. That’s the bar, it’s so low.

(laughter)

Jeremy: Wow.

Jessica: Just saying.

Jeremy: We have a long way to go.

Kolby: We have a long way to go. I think that’s one of things though, that you’re right, I didn’t think about this as I was reading it necessarily, but I think you’re comments Jessica, make a lot of sense to me in that I think this story shows that by the way it has to be written, it shows there’s so much more work. I think as a white reader, I think you would be more forgiving of some mixed motivations that good can still come of, from a white character.

Jessica: Well, this definitely was something; I identify as LGBTQ and one of the things that definitely happened in the LGBTQ community with writing in the last decade, was there was this big movement of LGBTQ readers, “For the love of god, can we get not the perfect gay person? Can we get a villain that’s evil but somehow is not just evil just because they’re gay? Evil just because they’re evil”

Kolby: You can be gay and evil and have them be unrelated.

Jessica: Right! Yeah. And I thought it was such a good comment, and we have seen literature evolve especially speculative fiction, evolve since then to fill that void. But it was a void that people were, like, you know, we only get Morgan Freeman as God. That’s it. And we only got gay people who were the best friend, the very effeminate best friend but…

Jeremy: The supportive non-threatening male character.

Jessica: Correct. And that was all we were getting. And now we’re getting a more nuanced evolution of literature through that. And I think that’s good, that shows we’re moving in the right direction.

Kolby: That it’s becoming a characteristic as opposed to a trait. Like a defining trait.

Jessica: Right. Or a motive for that matter. It was definitely motive at that point.

Kolby: What was the TV show I’ve kept insisting that you watch?

Jeremy: Euphoria. HBO.

Kolby: Euphoria, where one the main characters is trans or transitioning.

Jeremy: Transitioning.

Kolby:  It has a little bit, but it’s not he motivating character…

Jeremy: It’s a characteristic, but it’s not the defining characteristic for the character in this scenario.

Kolby: It’s like if she had blonde hair, it doesn’t matter in the thing.

Jessica: I was telling Kolby this on the way in, the reboot of the Jem and the Holograms comic book is frickin phenomenal.

(laughter)

Kolby: I’m going to have to read it or watch it now.

Jessica: Read.  There’s no show.

Jeremy: Yet.

Jessica: Yet.

(laughter)

Kolby: I haven’t seen Evil Dead 2, yet.

(laughter)

Jessica: So, there are gay characters and there are trans characters in Jem and the Holograms reboot, and literally it just doesn’t come up.

Kolby: It’s not the point of their character.

Jessica: There’s like one, it’s definitely not the point of their character, there’s like one point where the woman tells the rest of the group that, “by the way I’m trans because you’re putting me on stage and this may come out in the press.” And they were like, “ok” and that was it. And she was relieved. There was definitely a plot line there, but in general, it was not the point of the story. That’s…

Jeremy: Where you want to see things.

Jessica: …where you want to see things go.

Jeremy: Some realism in our writings.

Jessica: Yes.

Kolby: So, you’ve been listening to After Dinner Conversations, short stories for long conversations. This podcast as well as all the other ones, are available on I-tunes, I-podcast, what’s it called now?

(laughter)

Jessica: Please stop.

Jeremy: Google play.

Kolby: No because they changed I-tunes to I-podcasts.

Jessica: Wherever you get your podcasts.

Kolby: Wherever you get your podcasts, also on YouTube. All of the short stories are available on Amazon. You can also get some of the new ones that haven’t been released as e-books yet on www.afterdinnerconversation.com.

Jessica: Hey Kolby?

Kolby: Yes ma’am?

Jessica: What if I was a writer and wanted to write a story for After Dinner Conversation?

Kolby: So, if you were a writer and you wanted to write a story for After Dinner Conversation, first I would advise you proofread your story before sending it in.

(laughter)

Jeremy: Because Kolby can’t read. I really have to read everything to him over the phone.

Kolby: We get a lot of not final products, I would say, but assuming you’ve proofread it and assuming you’ve asked yourself, “is this sort of a literary version of the trolly problem?” then the short story version of the trolly problem, which by the way nobody has sent it in yet but I bet it’ll happen.

Jeremy: It’ll happen.  

Kolby: Now it will. Then please do send it in, because that would be amazing. We get a lot already; we probably get 3-5 a day that are submitted now.

Jessica: That’s great.

Kolby: But if we got 5-7 a day submitted I would not be disappointed. Particularly if any of those additional ones were good, or amazing or phenomenal or as good as this one. If we got 5-7 “Are you Him”’s a day, I would not be sad.

Jessica: So, where do you submit?

Kolby: You go to our website. Afterdinnerconversation.com

Jeremy: I think that was the questions actually.

Jessica: Where are the submission guidelines?

Kolby: Oh yeah, the submission guidelines are on the website as well.

Jessica: Thanks Jeremy.

Kolby: And if you’re part of…

(laughter)

Kolby: If you’re part of do a trope or, what’s the other one…

Jessica: Submittable…

Kolby: Submission grinder, which is a weird name for a submission thing. We actually just finished a little while ago our writing competition and in a couple of weeks we’ll do that story as well. By the way, that’s the other cool thing about submitting, what do writers want? They want their story not only read, but discussed and what better way than to be, “yea, we’re going to discuss your story for a half an hour with cats.”

Jessica: A cat names Hemmingway.  

Kolby: That pretty much sells itself.

Jessica: I agree.

Kolby: So next week, we have “Lay On.” Three outcast witches visit the hippy era to tempt a street musician. And it definitely sort of flavors Macbeth.

Jessica: Some genre’s going on. Some speculative fiction.

Kolby: Are you going to have a long paragraph like Jeremy to discuss it?

(silence)

(laughter)

Kolby: Okay, okay. Well, hopefully Hemmingway will not be adopted yet and he’ll still be here for us next time we’re back.

Jessica: Yeah, I hope so.

Kolby: Thank you for joining us. Bye.

Jessica: Bye.