E12. "A Community of Peers" - Would you cast the first stone?

“Would you cast the first stone?”

Kolby, Jeremy, and Jessica discuss the ethics in the short story, “A Community of Peers” by Dean Gessie.

Philosophy | Ethics Short Story Discussions - Podcast RSS

Transcription (By: Transcriptions Fast)

A Community of Peers

(clap)

Kolby: Hi.

(clap)

Kolby: You are…

(laughter)

Kolby: Hi. Welcome back to After Dinner Conversation. The cackling you hear is Jessica. I am a co-host Kolby. Jeremy is here as always.

Jeremy: Hi, I’m Jeremy.

Kolby: And we are once again, for the 12th episode now.

Jeremy: Oooooh.

Jessica: 12. So now you know how to count?  We’re growing.

Jeremy: So, impressed.

Kolby: Growing as a person.

Jessica: We’re growing.

Kolby: Ya, no, that’s why I had to wear flip-flops, so I could see the toes.

Jeremy: So, you could count to 12?

(laughter)

Kolby: I counted my teeth.

(Laughter)

Kolby: Alabama, they can only count to 7.

Jessica: Oh, stop it. Alabama, we love you.

Kolby: Sure. So, anyways, After Dinner Conversation is short stories for long conversations like the ones we have all the time. And it’s meant to be read by you and your friends, talked about, discussed, built up some ideas form the stories, some morals, figure out if you’ve got something you want to submit, if you like what you’re hearing, you’re like, “I’m a writer, I can do this.”  Then please do. Send something in, and if we like it, we’ll publish it. And if we like it even more, well discuss it. And it’ll be one of the things it’s on our thing. If you want to read them, you can go to Amazon or to our website Afterdinnerconversation.com. By all means, please “like” and “subscribe” to the podcast, YouTube, video, whatever you’re watching. And thank you for joining us.

Jessica: Where are we at?

Kolby: We are at La…. See, I always forget one thing every week.

Jessica: That’s okay.

Kolby: We are, once again, for the 12th episode in a row, I feel like we’re keeping Claritin in business. We are in La Gattara, where they have cats that are available for adoption. The sign over there says they are 509 adopted cats.

Jessica: 509.

Kolby: They just adopted 2 yesterday they told us. If you’re not ready to make that commitment to a cat, which doesn’t seem like a ton of commitment in my mind…

Jeremy: You could just hang out with them here.

Kolby: You could just come hang out with them here, pay $5 or $10, use the Wi-Fi, get a little work done, and they do have drinks. They’ve got, you know, Pepsi and water.

Jessica: And Frappuccino.

Kolby: And other stuff. Yeah, so it’s a fun place. And the lady is super nice too. We are also joined as profession heckler, by Ashley, who was in our first 4 episodes, who will be taking over again for Jessica, since this is Jessica’s last episode

Jessica: For forever?

Kolby: No, not forever.

Jessica: This is my favorite cat. This is Hemingway. He’s a pretty boy.

Ashley: I’m just here for the cats by the way.

Jessica: This is my favorite **** by the way.

(laughter)

Kolby: Yeah, so anyways, we’re doing this one, and then Ashley will be back in probably for the next episode and we’ll go from there. Oh hello.

Jessica: Hemingway, you’re the best...

Kolby: Hemingway is very cute. So, our story is actually a special edition I suppose in that we had our first writing contest.

Jessica: Yes, oh yeah.

Kolby: And we got quite a few submissions, more than I would have thought for a first writing contest. And we pared them down to some good ones and down to some great ones and them part them down to this one, which is both good and great, particularly in that it really provided a lot of good fodder. Raw material for what we do.

Jeremy: For conversations.

Kolby: For conversations, yea. And so, the writing is, I think, you know, it’s good but the it’s really the…

Jessica: …the dilemma.

Kolby: …the dilemma, that when we talked about it we were like, “Yeah, we could definitely talk about this.”

Jeremy: This one for a while.

Kolby: For a little while at least. So, it’s a “Community of Peers” by Dean Gessie. Also, if you’ve got, we’d probably have another writing competition going on at some point, so check back on the website. I don’t think this will be the last writing competition we do. The submission was super cheap. It was like $20. We’re not making any money, we’re actually losing money, but we got us some good submissions, so it was worth it. So, “A Community of Peers” by Dean Gessie. I did such a bad time at our last…

Jeremy: No, you get to do this one again.

Kolby: I get to do it again. Just keep doing it until you get it right.

Jessica: This is practice.

Kolby: This is practice. Perfect practice makes perfect. Okay, so this one is really, it’s an impressionistic in that as I read it, I was like, “I think we’re here, I think we’re here”, and so you get sort of glimpses of what’s going on as opposed to a really clear A-to-B-to-C. But the general gist of it is, is it’s a person, who I guess was in a war? For some reason I assumed Vietnam. That was a totally made-up assumption on my part. But they’re going from, sort of, wherever they are in this fictional place, they’re in the jungle, they’re driving a car, gets stuck in the mud, they abandon the car. The person very easily abandoned their rental car. Apparently, they paid for the extra coverage.

(laughter)

Kolby: And they continue to wander into what effectively, from a literary standpoint, is an isolated one-off jungle community that doesn’t really have to interact much with the outside society. He finds some people, they bring him in. And when they bring him in, they find there’s a person, a man, tied to a tree. And there’s a bunch of people standing around with a basket of stones. They’re going all Bible on them. And the community leader comes forward and says, which I think is an odd thing, “Oh, are you new here?” And it’s like, “Alright, I just wandered in from the jungle. I clearly don’t look like all of you.”

Jeremy: He says, “Are you a foreigner?”

Kolby: Yeah, “You’re a foreigner’ and it’s like, “Yeah, I’m sorry, unless we’re from Southwest United States, I have an accent.”

Jessica: yeah, right.

Kolby: But whatever, the guys’ a foreigner and so he says, “Oh, because we want to perpetuate our morals and values and government system, we have a rule here that on days where we have executions, the foreigner is the first one to throw the stone.” Because they do stoning’s here. “And you can be the one to throw the first stone. And we didn’t have a foreigner here before” god knows why, “but since you’re here, batter up.”

Jeremy: It’s our way of including strangers in the life of the village.

Kolby: There you go. I mean, I feel like dinner would be….

(laughter)

Kolby: You know, good, maybe a soccer match. But every culture is different. I don’t judge. This is not my judgement face.

Jessica: This is my judgment face.

Kolby: So, the guy basically says, like, “Look, I’m not going to stone someone I don’t know.” To which the village elder says, “Well, don’t you have the death penalty in your country?” I assume this guy is from Texas because his response is, “Yes, we kill people all the time in my country.” Texas has a very active death penalty.

Jessica: Yes.

Kolby: And he says, “Well, do you know what all those people do?” He’s like, “Of course, I don’t. I just know they had a trial on a jury and they were found guilty under our laws.” And this person is like, “We had a trial, and a jury and he was found guilty under our laws, so what’s the problem?” And much to my surprise as a reader, the guy does it. He just like, picks up a giant softball sized smooth stone. Apparently, it’s like a perfectly round stone, so I guess it’s like the stoning stone.

Jessica: Right. Ceremonial stoning stone.

Jeremy: Beans him.

Kolby: And just beans him right in the head. Kills him instantly. It’s like a cow in like a factory or something. The guy immediately dies. Nobody else throws a stone because he’s dead and they all just dropped their stones and leave. Now, my first thought when I read this was, “It’s a trap.”

(Laughter)

Kolby: It was like…

Jeremy: This is going to go south.

Kolby: “We were testing you to see if you’re the kind of guy that would stone some random guy tied to a tree and you failed the test.” It turns out it wasn’t.

Jessica: Or won.

Kolby: Or won the test. Turns out it wasn’t a test. They weren’t trying to stone him to maul him, they were stoning him just to kill him and when he’s dead, there’s no reason to continue stoning so, that’ it. And then at the end of the story you find out the person was a convicted, I believe, of rape?

Jessica: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Kolby: Which I guess is why, well, it’s a really weird sort of thing, that only the women were standing around waiting to stone him.

Jeremy: And they wouldn’t tell him beforehand.

Kolby: He asked, “What did he do?” He’s like, “Doesn’t matter”.

Jeremy: Right, he was tried.

Kolby: You got to do it blind.

Jessica: Right. Which seemed to be something about the law...

Kolby: And I get it in this sense, if you believe in the system, then you don’t need to know the details. But if you just wander into a community and you’re told to take on faith that the system is uncorrupt, that’s a huge leap that you’re just going to be like, ‘Yeah, I believe in the system, that I’m not a member of, that I did not contribute to, that I do not vote in, that I’m not even culturally aware of, but you told me that it’s a non-corrupt system, so yea, batters up”. So, there’s a couple things I really liked about this story. I know there were a couple things Jessica, that you were frustrated with, you mentioned. But one of the things I liked about it, is it kept going where I wasn’t expecting it to go. I didn’t expect them not to tell them what the guy had done. Because I thought his problem would be, honestly, I thought the problem was going to be, you’re about to get killed for something that isn’t death-penalty worthy in my country. So maybe it was jaywalking or something. Wow, there’s cat.

Jeremy: Cat fighting over here.

Kolby: Cat MMA fighting in the corner.

Jessica: Yeah.

Kolby: I thought that would’ve been an interesting twist because now you’re saying, “Look, I value your system, therefore value your outcomes, even if it’s personally against my values because I think the punishment is extreme.” And so, the fact they didn’t tell him, I was like, “Oh, that’s an interesting choice, that I thought was perfectly fine, and the I was also surprised that at the end they do tell him.

Jessica: They do tell him after everything.

Kolby: Because I feel it would have left that hanging moment of like, “Maybe I just killed someone for jaywalking?” But it somehow absolves him, at least at some level, assuming he believes…

Jeremy: That he knows it was a fully valid reason for him.

Kolby: Right.

Jeremy: But what if it had been a valid reason, a valid law, that had been a codified law of their moral structure but, for something really bizarre that he did not agree too.

Kolby: Like an offense to the gods.

Jeremy: Something that he didn’t consider to be a crime.

Kolby: You reached for food with your left hand, and left hand is an unholy hand.

Jessica: And I just want to point out its pedophilia.

Kolby: Oh, was it?

Jessica: It was rape of a young child. But pedophilia is not a death penalty worthy crime in the United States.

Kolby: Not in the united states.

Jessica: So, it is a crime we would not kill someone.

Kolby: Many readers would be comfortable with it being a death penalty case.

Jeremy: Does it change the way you feel about the story if it had been something that he did not consider a great crime?

Kolby: Or that you personally do not consider a great crime?

Jessica: I mean, I don’t know if it would’ve changed my feeling about the story because I genuinely cannot fathom… I think there’s a couple things, one, I cannot fathom not understanding a system before I threw a stone. I couldn’t. I can’t fathom that. I don’t understand that motivation. But, also, we deal with a very corrupt justice system. The death penalty has huge problems and is a very corrupt system anyways and we’re still here to support it and be part of it. We’re not overthrowing the government.

Kolby: You still pay your taxes.

Jessica: I still pay my taxes.

Jeremy: Still show up for jury duty

Jessica: Yes, I still do all of that.

Kolby: Although with an attitude like that, you’ll never get selected, let me tell ya.

Jessica: I hope not.

(laughter)

Jessica: So, I think, that for me, I think that’s an interesting… but the other thing I still can’t get past, and I don’t understand and I want to talk about, is why not just underhand toss the stone at the dude? Like, why is it like a whaling where he kills the guy? Then it’s not your fault the guy…

Kolby: Like, you could’ve missed…

Jessica: Why is that he wails the guy in the temple and kills him?

Kolby: I feel like it’s more humane.

Jeremy: That is what the mayor tries to tell him is that…

Kolby: You don’t want a bunch of little league kids throwing balls, you want the pitcher.

Jessica: I guess? I don’t know. I think I would’ve underhand tossed it, humane or not.

Jeremy: Because he tells him

Kolby: Gone for a shoulder shot.

Jessica: I don’t know. Hit a big toe.

Jeremy: Somewhere in here…

Kolby: I’ve done that thing that’s a dunking tank. The fact that he hit the guy in the head on the first throw is a miracle. I’ve dropped $20 on those dunking tanks and never dunked anybody.

Jeremy: He says he’s only 10 feet away from his though. I suppose that’s the dunk tank. So he says the women with children will cast the first stone, if you choose not to, and that you have both the power and the ability to end the life of this criminal quickly or at the very least knock him unconscious so that the cleaning up is less painful for all concerned.

Jessica: I don’t’ know. I also think it’s a little bit of take not that we know it’s a pedophilia. I would probably be like, and he took it away from all those moms.

Kolby: I thought about that too.

Jessica: …that would’ve stoned the crap out of that guy.

Kolby: And they wouldn’t be aiming for the head.

Jessica: Nuh huh. I have a very specific thing I would be aiming at.

(laughter)

Jeremy: So, what about the idea that even though there’s a, what appears to be a codified legal system, that this is still just a mob justice?

Kolby: What do you mean mob justice?

Jeremy: Mob justice. This is the presumably the mob that tried him, like, this is the town that all this happened in.

Kolby: So, he couldn’t get an unbiased jury.

Jeremy: Right. So how it is really a jury of his peers of unbiased peers.

Kolby: Because you’d have to sort of move to another town because of the getting an unbiased jury would be impossible in that town. I hadn’t even thought about that.

Jeremy: So, this leads to another point, if he is stoned by the mothers with children, this is absolutely mob justice because he’s the executioner and doesn’t know this, does this suddenly become justice?

Jessica: Interesting.

Jeremy: Not to paraphrase from the Hateful 8.

Kolby: That’s a great point though.

Jeremy: The executioner is what turns this into justice as opposed to mob justice.

Jessica: I don’t know if it turns into justice because it’s not the executioner that is making that decision. The punishment is decided and the punishment is death. So, where that is just or not has already been decided but it is the humane, is it going to be done humanely or not? Because the executioner doesn’t know and wants to act in the most humane manner, he kills the convicted immediately.

Kolby: I really liked Jeremy’s point though. This goes to the idea of, If you’ve got the guy who swings that axe to behead you, do you first say, “Oh, let me hand the axe to the victim.” No, we don’t because we understand that act should be an impartial act. We need someone who is totally uninterested in the process.

Jessica: It is a great point. I don’t think it’s justice, I think its impartiality in humanity, but it is justice, yes. I can agree with that. And I do think that’s very interesting. And I think it’s a good motivation to withhold and then tell you later. I don’t think that the narrator writes whether, he’s relieved of the burden of whether this man… but also like, it’s still again, he feels like his burden is released of feeling guilty or not. But that assumes a society that we know that the system is just. Which I’m not sure of.

Jeremy: That this system is just. Because he still potentially was tried…

Jessica: By a mob.

Jeremy: Right.

Kolby: But I mean, in an isolated community, I’m not sure they had a better choice.

Jessica: Oh yeah. No.

Kolby: So, there’s, yes, it’s mob justice, but the assumption is that there are rules of evidence, that there are objections, that there’s a judge, they do jury that’s not one of the people. There’s some due process. And to the extent they could, they tried to do the best they could. And in that sense, it’s like okay. So, I’m going throw a stone for a second…. Oh, oh… is this a stone.

(cat placed on table)

Jessica: This is a stone. Just kidding. This is a kitty, a cute kitty.

Kolby: She’s already turning into a drull. One of my frustrations with this story I think the sort of odd tax that it took that surprised me, made me think more, the thing that I really just had a gut level, frustrated me about the main character is…

Jessica: … is he left that car in the swamp? Agreed.

Kolby: He struck me as a petty Instagram-mer.

(laughter)

Kolby: In the sense of, at no point do we get what would should have been at least a half a page internal dialogue… sorry, I spit on you there…

Jessica: That’s okay.

Kolby: An internal dialogue about like here is all of the things that are going into my weighing of my choice, right? And after I’ve done it, here are all of the ways that this choice has affected me. And maybe, it’s certainly possible the reason that’s not included, is because that gives away too much that we should be doing ourselves. Because if he doesn’t tell us what he thinks, then were forced to wonder what we think. But it comes off as so trite by not having it in there, that it was just a little bit jarring, although maybe useful.

Jessica: I do think it is a choice in the narration that you, to kind of, leave it in this empty space where we can have some time ….

Jeremy: To leave it ambiguous and put in our own feelings on the issue.

Jessica: Or even just to argue with his choice in our own heads. To be like, “Wait, wait, what are you doing?”

Kolby: And he doesn’t get to justify him as an unreliable narrator because we don’t get to hear his thoughts.

Jessica: Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Kolby: Jeremy, throw the stone?

Jeremy: I don’t know.

Kolby: That’s the first “I don’t know” you’ve had in a while. Probably since, what was the drug one?

Jeremy: No, no, I said yes on that one.

(laughter)

Jessica: That was a quick yes. I even remember that one.

Kolby: Alright, so this might be your first “I don’t know” in a while?

Jeremy: In the condition that’s put forward here, I would probably say no because you don’t really know the justice system that’s in place. Was he tried here? Was he tried in the next town over by his peers?

Kolby: Does trial in this culture mean, like we dumped him in water and he floated?

Jessica: Right.

Kolby: Floated or didn’t float or whatever.

Jeremy: And the narrator even says that, “I did not betray and smirk but I had seen more than once overwhelming and then disputable evidence blow up hospitals and schools.” Which, not entirely sure what he means by that.

Kolby: I think that’s the veteran part of him.

Jeremy: The veteran part.

Kolby: So, let me ask you this Jeremy.

Jeremy: Seems an odd response in that sense.

Kolby: What about the fact that, your choice to follow through or not follow through on the community justice is imposing your sort of cultural norms on their community’s morals and values?

Jeremy: That’s a whole another…

Kolby: So let’s say the trial, he said he got a fair and just trial, is actually like, they rolled a 20 sided di and one through 5 is not guilty, 6 thru 10 is guilty, 11 thru 20 is a hung jury, but in their culture, that is how that they have decided what justice means to them as a word and as a process. Who are you to say their justice system is wrong because you wandered into their community? They didn’t wander into yours.

Jeremy: So, you abstain at that point. If you don’t find their justice system valid, you don’t throw the stone.

Kolby: Yeah good thinking you don’t go to some other country and be like, “’I don’t find your red, yellow, green light system valid therefor I do not stop at street corners.”

Jeremy: That’s different...

Kolby: When you go to the community, don’t you accept that you are a part of that community’s value system?

Jessica: Okay.

Jeremy: No, you obey their laws but he even says you can abstain. And we’ll go about our normal system.

Kolby: Oh, that’s true.

Jeremy: I think in that case you abstain because it does violate your own moral code because you don’t find their justice system valid. In this case I don’t think that can apply to every case, but in this case.

Kolby: But aren’t you same guy you would say, “Yeah, you shouldn’t bribe the police or police shouldn’t take bribes?” But in their system where you underpay police, accepting bribes is part of the way they make a living.

Jeremy: Right, that’s a different case than this. I would pay the cop.

Kolby: Because it’s life or death versus cash?

Jeremy: Yeah.

Kolby: Again, with the moral relativism. I’m just saying. I’m just saying. Baseball back to the back of the head is what happens if you get sick. Jessica, what do you think?

Jessica: Do I throw the stone? No.  I might do it underhand toss, I half-heartedly, you know, to be part of it, but I’m not throwing a stone.

Kolby: What if you’d gotten more of the story? What if they’re were like, “Look, we’ll suspend it for 24 hours so you can talk to who you need to talk to.”? But aren’t you becoming the jury?

Jessica: First of all, I didn’t agree to that, so don’t accuse me to becoming the jury.

Kolby: Well, no, but aren’t you then deciding if you believe enough in their system?

Jessica: I think that it doesn’t matter at that point. They’ve made a decision, it’s not whether or not I throw the stone, whether if this… this is a different story if it’s you throw the stone and if you decide not the throw this tone, he lives. He’s dying either way. It’s just whether if I’m participating in it. No, I’m not. I’ve very much against the death penalty, even for pedophiles. I’m against the death penalty. I think we can still study and learn from then and prevent future problems from happening. But I’m definitely not going to participate. I’m not going to throw the stone.

Kolby: Alright, let me give you another hypothetical, and you’re getting this one next.

Jeremy: Okay.

Jessica: Wait, you get a hypothetical. That not fair.

Kolby: So, let’s say you go to another country, you pick whatever country, and you realize the massage parlors are not massage parlors, that they’re for a little something extra.

Jessica: So, San Diego great.

Kolby: But it’s totally not really legal, it’s not a thing, it’s socially acceptable, everyone knows, it’s not a hidden under the table sort of thing, maybe technically illegal, but whatever. And your brother, sister, husband, whoever, is like, “Look, it’s totally fine here.” Do you then say, “No, no, no, you don’t get to go native because you and I have decided that we’re not native?”

Jessica: So, the idea is do I …. So is the hypothetical, to put it more generally, if I go to a country and I disagree with whatever system, they’ve set up, and

Kolby: You get to continually to both abstain and encourage others from your culture that are with you to abstain. What if your husband was like, “Toss me the stone.” Would be you be like, ‘Honey, no, no you don’t get to toss the stone.”

Jessica: I don’t know. I think that’d be up to them. It depends on if it affects me. What your proposing with the stone is if I give him the stone and he throws it and hits and kills that person, that’s something he gets to live with. It’s not something that affects me. But if it’s he throws the stone…

Kolby: And he gets chlamydia at the massage parlors…

Jessica: Right, or anything, and that would affect me and it would have to be a discussion. But, just to throw a stone, no. I would not make… I don’t know. I get to make my own decision. I would say like death penalty is terrible. Just like I would be like, “Wouldn’t it be great if we all ate less meat?” I’m trying to influence you in a certain direction I think we all need to go in, but I’m not saying you can’t do that.

Kolby: Jeremy?

Jeremy: I generally agree with that. You do try to influence based on the information that’s available.

Kolby: And so, if the person you’re with is like, “Hey, we’re in the red-light district in Amsterdam, like sorry dude, I want to swing by.” You’re like, “You know it’s illegal in America or it’s considered immoral in America or whatever, but here it’s okay, so yeah man, I’ll meet you back at 11 o’clock.”

Jeremy: But it still depends on the decision that we have, between us.

Jessica: It’s the relationship between the two people. If we’re talking about Amsterdam 20 years ago. Pot was not legal in the United States anywhere. You go to Amsterdam, smoke it. That’s illegal but it’s legal there. Is that a moral judgment? No, it’s their laws. Although sometimes laws are codifications of morals, they’re not always, there are sometimes just stupid laws. I don’t think sex workers should be punished for having a profession as a sex worker. So, I’m not going to judge if there’s a red-light district. I would like to make sure that everybody’s taken care of but that’s more of a me making sure that women are okay. But I don’t think there’s a moral judgement. Now, if I’m with somebody and we’re in a monogamous relationship…

Jeremy: That’s different…

Jessica: There’s a different story there.

Kolby: Are there versions of this story that you would have liked to have read? That you think would’ve asked other questions that you would like to have answered? I can think of an example, while you guys are thinking, I’ll think of an example. So, for example, if it had been the version you’re talking about, because there’s a foreigner in the community you’re the only one that can kill him...

Jessica: You’re the decider.

Kolby: Maybe not the decider, but you’re the…

Jeremy: You’re the only one.

Kolby: You’re the only one that can be the axe man. And if you choose not to, he was still found guilty.

Jeremy: Instead of walking in and they’ve got him tied to the tree, they have a prison full of prisoners, these three guys are on death row waiting for a stranger to come in, to be impartial executioner.

Kolby: We’re waiting for a foreigner. We don’t want the burden in our community. Because all of us are wrapped up in it. And if you don’t do it…

Jeremy: Then they’re just going to sit here until the next guy.

Jessica: So, Jeremy what do you do? Jeremy what do you do? You already used up your “I don’t know”

(laughter)

Jeremy: Yeah, as an impartial executioner, that is a tough one.

Jessica: Would you really?

Jeremy: I don’t know.

Jessica: I feel like you would. I feel like your face says you would.

Kolby: Here is the other thing: you don’t know how cruel the next person might be. The next person might see it as sporting to sort of hit them in non-vital areas for hours. You could be the humane one in this story.

Jeremy: How do you execute them? No, you have to stone them. I think that’d be really rough.

Jessica: Because you’d be a terrible baseball player.

Jeremy: Yeah. Well, no, just stoning somebody to death. You’re not going to kill them on the first one.

Jessica: This one got killed on the first one.

Kolby: I think he got lucky.

Jessica: He got lucky, okay.

Kolby: Are there versions of this, Jessica, that you think would put you more in the gray line area?

Jessica: I think, if we escalated the prison’s scenario that Jeremy gave us, there’s three prisoners waiting execution, and if they don’t…

Kolby: I’m getting questions from Ashley.

Jessica: Oh, Ashley’s giving us questions. Okay. If he was in prison, and being tortured, I think I would have an easier time deciding to kill people that are being tortured.

Jeremy: Even if it’s not tortured but solitary confinement. We have each of these guys.

Jessica: Which is torture. But if their well-being is taken care of, I would absolutely say no. I would be like, “No, you wait till the next person.” I’m okay because I just would not make that decision. I’m hoping that society evolves between me and the next foreigner that comes, that they decide the death penalty is a terrible idea, and they get rid of it and they decide lifelong imprisonment, or whatever or rehabilitation or whatever they decide. I think I would still have trouble executing someone because of that. However, if they’re being tortured and I’m witnessing it, I feel that that is no inhumane, it might move me to kill someone.

Kolby: What if it wasn’t death penalty? What if they’re like, “Look, our punishment in this case is getting a hand chopped off.”

Jessica: Uhh.

Kolby: So now…

Jeremy: You’re still the impartial party.

Kolby: And now it’s not something that I know you have a problem with is the death penalty.

Jessica: Right, right, right.

Kolby: It’s something, maybe you don’t believe in taking off a hand, but whatever, or maybe it’s a branding of this sin, right? So that people know.

Jessica: Well, does it happen if I say no?

Kolby: Yeah, of course.

Jessica: Well, then I say no. Why in any of these situations would anybody say yes? There’s a line.

Kolby: Instagrammer said yes.

Jessica: There’s a line waiting for people to brand this person, you’re first, do you want to go? No, Okay. Next person.

Jeremy: But you’re the stranger and we can’t do it because none of us are impartial, we need the first stranger to come through to perform the punishment.

Kolby: It would make all of us feel good to punish this person therefore we cannot be the person who punishes them.

(Ashley asking question off camera)

Jessica: So, Ashley asked, what if you get punished for not punishing them? What if I die if I don’t kill them? I’ll kill them. Not a problem.

Kolby: Really?

Jessica: Absolutely.

Kolby: That’s not the answer I expected.

Jessica: Really?

Kolby: Ashley also wrote on the piece of paper; he’s a veteran and he’s probably killed people before in other situations. So, in that sense, it’s not like, he at some point had made this decision, like, “Killing people at times is what we do”

Jeremy: It’s what we do, but again I feel that’s very situational as well, even for soldiers where...

Kolby: Because there’s been some theoretical declaration of war.

Jeremy: Right. And they have rules of engagement.

Kolby: Alright. Well, sorry Ashley, we tried. We tried.

Ashley: What if the first person to throw is under 18, or never killed before, or was a child? What if they go to the front of the line?

Kolby: Do they have a fast pass from Disney land?

Jessica: So, Ashley’s question is if the foreigner was a child.

Jeremy: A minor.

Jessica: I don’t know. I think that’s awful, that’d be a messed-up society.

Kolby: That’s a screwed-up society to do that. Alright, so you’ve been listening to After Dinner Conversation. We went a little bit long on this one surprisingly. We’ve been pretty good about sticking to a half an hour but we went a little bit over, sorry about that. After Dinner Conversation, short stories for long discussions. If you enjoyed this, please “like” and “subscribe”. Please listen to other ones too. There’s like a backlog now. And all of them ask really interesting good questions, mostly involving Jessica picking on me. Or cats. Also, if you’ve got a story you want to submit, submit it to your website afterdinnerconversation.com.  Download these stories on our website or Amazon, or whoever e-books are sold, or podcasts are done, or YouTube. We basically have populated the Earth with these things. So yeah, and thank you for joining us. And I think this might be our last La Gattara one. I think our next one might be from a different location. It’s possible.

Jessica: Will there be puppies?

Kolby: Man, I hope there are puppies. Man, I hope there are puppies.

Jeremy: Let’s find that.

Kolby: We need to find a puppy place.

Jessica: La Pupparia.

Kolby: La Pupparia. La Canine-ria.

Jeremy: Not a puppymill. That’s different.

Kolby: A puppymill. That’s not the same. If you want to adopt any of these cats, just come on down. It’s La Gattara in Tempe, Arizona. They are all available for adoption. If you don’t have the commitment yet to adopt one, you can pay $10. They got Wi-Fi, you can sit and hang out, and I guarantee you’ll get a cat who sits on your keyboard.

Jessica: Yes.

Jeremy: Yes.

Kolby: Guaranteed. And It’s just a great cause. So, thank you for joining us again.

Jessica: See ya next time!

Jeremy: See ya next time.

Kolby: Wherever that may be.