“Would you take a pill that showed you the truth about the world?”

Kolby, Jeremy, and Ashley discuss the ethics in the metaphysical short story, “The Shadow Of The Thing” available to download on Amazon.

Transcript (By Transcriptions Fast)

The Shadow of the Thing

Kolby: Okay, welcome back again to After Dinner Conversation. I am your co-host Kolby with co-hosts Ashley and Jeremy. After Dinner Conversation is a growing collection of short stories across genres meant to draw out deeper conversation. I feel like I’m getting better at that now. And they are available for download to read either on the website or you can go to wherever e-books are; Amazon, Apple, various places. And download them to your e-reader, laptop, all that. And all things we’re talking about and all these stories that we’re doing, even some of the questions are online. So, you can post your own comments and thoughts in the comments section below.

(Kolby points downward)

Kolby: I always see people do that in YouTube videos and I think that looks so weird.

(laughter)

Kolby: We are today once again at La Gattara, a cat café in Tempe, Arizona. Mostly because we just really thought this would be a fun place to do these. And they are super nice to let us stay here. So, come on by. You can play with the kitten any time you want.

Ashley: By the way, every cat here is up for adoption. Including this little spunk-a-doodle.

Kolby: Although by the time you see this, it might already be adopted because it’s freakin’ adorable. But there will be new kittens. You should probably read the stories before you watch the thing, but if you haven’t that’s okay, we’ll give you a little bit of a description. Matter of fact, Jeremy, you want to give a little bit of a description of the story?

Jeremy: The story is called “The Shadow of the Thing.” Who’s the author on this? Kurt? We haven’t been doing the authors.

Ashley: Tyler Kurt.

Jeremy: Tyler Kurt, sorry.

Kolby: Next week we’ve got somebody different.

Jeremy: So, “The Shadow of the Thing” by Tyler Kurt, is a short story about two people, a relationship between two people. Somebody comes over to their friend’s house, or is invited to their friend’s house, and the woman wants her friend there, because she’s about to take a drug that is going to change her perspective on reality.

Ashley: Forever.

Jeremy: Right.

Kolby: Forever.

Ashley: For-Ev-Er.

Kolby: It’s a single use drug.

Ashley: The drug’s called apple.

Jeremy: And the conversation that happens around that. Not really the ramifications, but the conversation about the ramifications of this decision.

Kolby: So, we don’t ever get to see what happens when she takes it?

Jeremy: Right. There’s some second hand because her husband has already taken it, and you do get to see how he interacts with them.

Kolby: He’s freaky.

Jeremy: A little bit.

Kolby: A little bit, yeah.

Jeremy: I don’t know, he’s an engineer.

Kolby: This cat is super energetic this week.

Jeremy: He acts like every engineer I know.

Kolby: Yea, he acts just like an engineer, I get it.

Ashley: So, the main narrator of the story his name is Dakota. And the lady who’s taking the drug, her name is Maeve and her husband Jason, who’s already taken the drug, just to get names out there.

Kolby: Maeve, I think.

Ashley: Maeve. M-A-E-V-E.

Kolby: I think Maeve, honestly, because it’s a deviation from Eve. That’s my guess.

Ashley: Oh. There ya go.

Jeremy: Maeve has a U.

Ashley: Oh, well, never mind. Sorry.

Kolby: That’s alright. Please continue.

Ashley: That’s it.

Kolby: That’s it.

Ashley: I was just giving names.

Kolby: Dakota, Maeve, and what’s Maeve’s husbands name? I don’t remember.

Ashley: Jason.

Ashley: So, Dakota comes over and Maeve answers the door, every excited, this is a friend of his, obviously they’re very close, and she’s sits him down and goes “I’m so glad you’re here, I want to take this drug apple.” And basically, it was “I want to take it...”

Kolby: Do you remember why it’s called that?

Ashley: It looks like an apple.

Jeremy: The pill has a dimple.

Kolby: Oh, because it looks like an apple. Okay. So, it’s not red or something like that?

Jeremy: Right.

Ashley: Now, her situation is she wanted someone to be there that could keep an eye on her, make sure she’s safe, while she takes this drug. And she also wanted to see him for the last time as he is, before…

Jeremy: Or as she is.

Ashley: Or as she is, before she changes.

Kolby: And the drug is a weird drug. It’s definitely a fictional drug, right?

Jeremy: Yea.

Kolby: Because it’s not like an ecstasy, or pot, or heroin sort of drug.

Jeremy: No, it would be a neurotrope.

Kolby: What’s a neurptrope? Did you do research?

(Laughter)

Jeremy: I’ve done a lot of research on this. So neurotropes are drugs that affect you’re mind. Effect how you process information, or basically, there’s a lot of fads around neurotropes to make you a better worker.

Kolby: Like Ritalin?

Jeremy: Yeah, very much the same thing or focused. The drugs that allow you the focus. A lot of gamblers take drugs to keep them awake.

Kolby: So neurotrope is like a focus drug, but you don’t mean like a single use drug where you take it once and it lasts forever?

Jeremy: No, and that’s the fictional component of this. Although some of those, some of neurotropes, you can take for a long time and they do effectively change the way your brain works and you don’t have to take them anymore.

Kolby: This reminded me a little bit of Limitless, except a creeper version of Limitless. Because Limitless is really a focus drug as opposed to this which is just a mind expansion drug.

Jeremy: Right.

Ashley: Keep in mind this is a relatively new drug. It’s not one that’s been on the market for a very long time. And according to the headlines, it’s known as the new party drug, or the teen dies, or the miracle mind bender. So, it’s a relatively new drug making news headlines. So, there’s not a whole lot known about it.

Kolby: Not a whole lot of research it seems like.

Ashley: No.

Kolby: It’s the way it goes, right? First the drug comes out, people take it without knowing what it does except for what their friends say it does, then in like 20 years later, all the research says “Oh, by the way, this is bad news.” Oh, we got a second cat.

Ashley: Cat city here!

Kolby: So, one of the things I thought, is that there were a lot of symbolism parallels in this one. So, number one obviously the idea that it’s called apple is pretty simple symbolic right? It’s this idea of Adam and Eve and taking an apple and because here’s the thing that I think is the interesting parallel for me, because you think of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden in that sort of biblical story, and they’re really just, I don’t want to be mean, but like cows? They don’t know they’re naked, they don’t get hungry, they don’t… all that stuff.

Jeremy: They’re innocent.

Kolby: They’re innocent. Right. The idea of it. And then when they take this apple, they…

Jeremy: They see the world.

Kolby: They see the world as it is, right? They see their own nakedness, they see, they feel hunger, they feel cold, all of that. And so, one of the things I think is interesting is the parallel of would you do it anyway? Do you want to live pre-apple, or do you want to live post-apple? Would you want to know, if even knowing is pain?

Ashley: The way that Jason had come down, Jason the husband who’s actually taken it, the way that he explained it as “imagine if there was a true world on top of the world that you see around you. And you were just seeing it for the first time now.” That’s the only way. And he seems very, in my opinion, kind of distant. He says hello but then he goes back to his work. Granted, we don’t know if that’s his personality to begin with.

Jeremy: He’s an engineer.

Ashley: Maybe he is an engineer. But that’s the best way that he could kind of understand it. Now Maeve is also wanted her friend to Dakota here because Jason, in her opinion was…

Jeremy: In incapable of sitting her for the experience.

Ashley: Exactly. So that made me go, even if your husband can’t even be there to help you...

Kolby: That’s a bad sign?

Ashley: Is that a bad sign? Is that a good sign? You know?

Kolby: You were going to say something?

Jeremy: It’s interesting. So, this actually brings two different aspects of two different types of drugs. So, neurotropes in terms of mind-expanding drugs, but also entheogens, which are drugs that are used for spiritual enlightenment.

Kolby: What were the people in Peru also into?

Ashley: Oh… it starts with ah….

Jeremy: There’s a bunch of them…

Kolby: Like psychotropes, mind expansion drugs.

Jeremy: Yes, mind expanding drugs that are used in a spiritual sense for two reach enlightenment. DMT is a really good example of that.

Kolby: Like the native Americans’ as well with they would take Peyote?

Jeremy: Right, so that’s a whole another class of mind-altering drugs that are really used to expand your spiritual connection to the universe. So, it feels like it’s a combination of these two things going on. Which is an interesting way…

Kolby: Except forever, right? Like you take, whatever, Peyote, or whatever you mind expanding drug is, and you’re not just changed while you’re on it. The experience changes you forever.

Jeremy: Yes, instead of just being in this different state, it changes you and your perceptions and you incorporate that into your personality and continue on.

Kolby: I feel like there are variations of that exist already, right?

Jeremy: Right, absolutely.

Kolby: Ayahuasca. That’s was the name. The idea of, whether is a Native American tradition, whether I’s in Peru with Ayahuasca, or wherever it’s whatever, this idea that I take this thing and it allows me to understand in a way that I couldn’t have understood before. But this is like to the next level stuff.

Jeremy: Exactly.

Ashley: So, I’d like to talk about what would make someone want to take this in the first place? So, you have this girl who’s working, she’s seems content in herself, they live in a track home.

Jeremy: She does a lot of traveling.

Ashley: She does a lot of traveling.

Jeremy: She does a travel blog.

Ashley: But she also seems like she’s missing out on something. And same thing with Jason. He’s a base-jumper who squirrel dive, suit dives, who’s like the totally extreme, and on the other end he’s making his money as a programmer, it’s like, what makes someone want to take this drug in the first place? Are they divided in two different lives? Like, she’s this homebody, wearing sweatpants and slipper, yet she travels a lot.

Jeremy: They’re both people into extreme experiences.

Kolby: They are extremists in their own ways.

Ashley: Yes, that’s what I was getting at. So, what is their ultimate goal to find out of this drug? Is it going to lean them to be more authentic versions of themselves except they are …?

Jeremy: I think that’s the idea, to get to the most authentic version of yourself. And the most in-touch with your life and the universe you can get.

Ashley: You have to truly commit to that extremist part of yourself in a way? Because they have two parts of their lives?

Kolby: But I don’t think it’s a commit to an extremist. I think it’s a commitment to… we’re about to get a cat to tackle the camera…

(laughter)

Kolby: I think it’s a commitment to truth. It’s interesting because the biblical reference is that Adam and Eve made a mistake by eating the apple. But then we spent the rest of humanity existence trying to understand the universe and the world around us. Where is our place in it? How does it work? So, if you are committed to that pursuit, then why would you stop? Once you started down that road, I don’t think there’s an end. Or maybe there is?

Jeremy: There doesn’t have to be an end. It’s just you’re moving to yet another level of understanding.

Kolby: Yeah. So, one of the things I thought was interesting about the way Jason explains it, is it says “Jason held up the tea to show me and says ‘when I hold up this cup, you see a cup of tea and together we’ve given it the name cup of tea. But what if it’s just a form of the thing in this moment that we call tea, but not the thing itself?’” There was a couple other part where he talks that I thought were interesting.

Ashley: Like we call the thing coming into the beach a wave, instead of calling it a form of the ocean. It’s the exact same.

Kolby: Yea, like I’m seeing the cup of tea, and it’s what we call the separation of everything, the same way we call the wave the separation of the ocean.

Ashley: You’ve separated it, and called it something completely different, when it’s still an extension of its same thing.

Kolby: Right. Which I can see how that would be appealing.

Jeremy: Absolutely.

Kolby: Even if it totally messed up your understanding of…

Jeremy: And that’s really the question that comes about with all drug use, even if they’re neurotropes or enthogens, or psychoactives. Does it affect you to a point where you can no longer interact with society?

Ashley: And that’s what tipped me off with the Jason guy. When he comes down, they said he is kind of glossing eyed. And she can’t even trust him to take care of her. Now again, we don’t have the backstory if that’s just his personality in general or is this a side effect of apple.

Kolby: Think about it this way though too, and I hadn’t thought of this when I was reading it, but now that we’re talking about it… Imagine if there were two Adam and Eve’s. And I keep going back to this example, because it seems like a good parallel. So, let’s say there’s an Adam and Even that eat the apple and then there’s the Adam and Eve that didn’t that see them. How would the pre-apple Adam and Even see the post-apple. They would see them as odd and distant and angsty and sad. They would seem sad because they would know hunger and they would know pain and they would know nudity. And so, the pre-people would look at the post-people and be like, “why would anyone want that?”

Jeremy: Why would you do that?

Kolby: Why would you want that?

Jeremy: Ignorance is bliss.

Kolby: Right. I don’t understand what you’re going through, but I understand that you don’t seem happy anymore. And I feel happy.

Ashley: Isn’t there like, you can’t understand happiness without sad? Or you get a greater understand of happiness once you’ve had trauma and sadness and those effects? So, it’s, again, it’s a mind opening rather than an enhancement of your sensations around you in a way? So, at the end of the stories there are a series of questions. That brings us to question #2, do you think Maeve is making the right choice by taking apple?

Jeremy: Oh no, we didn’t ask #1.

Ashley: Oh, sorry, I was going off what we were just saying. So, #1 is while she’s taking the apple, there’s a couple extra leftover, and it says, “do you think Dakota is going to take it?”

Kolby: I love how there’s one left on the table. Just in case.

Ashley: Just in case. I don’t think you should. At least not in the moment when he himself doesn’t have someone to watch over him while he taking it.

Jeremy: If he hasn’t done the research, I think with any of them, you don’t know what to expect. And you’re not in the right place, it’s not the right decision.

Kolby: I also don’t know though… whoa, we got craziness going on behind us… I also don’t know how you research it? How does a post-person explain to a pre-person what their understanding?

Ashley: It’s like describing color to a blind person.

Kolby: Yeah, I think at a certain point, you can be like, “well, he didn’t die of hunger, I guess that’s good.”

(laughter)

Kolby: I don’t know how it’s anything but a leap of faith.

Jeremy: Certainly.

Kolby: Because maybe everyone is wrong. Maybe it doesn’t show you anything. Maybe… cats just having …

Ashley: There’s a cat running behind us on a walkway and she’s just like “Ahh”

Kolby: So, you say don’t take it, without more research?

Ashley: With Dakota? Yeah. More research, also do his own experiment. See how his friend changes. And thirdly, see if it’s something he wants to do himself.

Jeremy: Exactly. Where’s he at in his life and is this something that…

Ashley: There is this subtle like, “I need you here to take this by the way,” and slides a couple on the table. So, I don’t think he should. Absolutely not.

Kolby: I think this is the most don’t do it because of peer pressure drug there is. Because it’s a drug…

Jeremy: If it’s a permanent change.

Kolby: It’s not like cigarette. We’re it’s like, “well, I coughed and I didn’t like it.” You take it once and that’s it. You’re good for life. I think that’s one you don’t take that with the peer pressure.

Ashley: What about Maeve…

Kolby: Maeve.

Ashley: Sorry, I’m going to butcher that name all throughout this thing.

(laughter)

Ashley: Do you think Maeve is making the right choice by taking apple? Has she done her research? Has she prepped herself accordingly? Is she ready to commit to this life changing?

Kolby: I think that, for me, the only part of the story, I was like “hmmm”.

Jeremy: We don’t know because we don’t really know.

Kolby: Of, course there’s this inherent desire to be with your husband. So that’s the part I didn’t know. Is she doing it because she wants to be with her husband, or is she doing it, making a permanent, forever change to your perspective in the world potentially because internally she believes it’s the right choice? And I think that’s a huge difference in motivation that decides in if she’s making the right or wrong decision.

Jeremy: I mean, they’re linked but you would want them to be linked, not only is it just a continuation of he’s changed but clearly, he’s changed in positive enough ways that she sees it as a positive example.

Kolby: I think he’s kind of rude to have taken it without her actually.

Jeremy: I agree.

Kolby: I think that’s a conversation you have with your wife. You’re not just like, “hey, this guy slipped me this thing at the bar”

Ashley: No, no maybe it was, they sat down, we’re both interested. We’ll, I’ll take it first in case it kills me. I’ll be the test person. I see that a lot. That people come in, “my husband is going to go first, try it out for both of us just to make sure it’s safe.”

Kolby: What do you see that the husband’s like….

Ashley: Okay, so I work in the dental field.

Kolby: Oh, that’ my husband’s going to test out a crown first.

Ashley: No, well they come in and they’re like, “I want you to test out this dental office to see if it’s good, you go first.”

Jeremy: Oh, okay.

Ashley: So, I feel like this is the same situation. You test it out, you let me know if it’s okay. One thing I’d like to point out too, keep in mind she has taken almost everything in a non-addictive manner.

Kolby: That’s right, she’s like the one person who doesn’t get addicted to anything…

Ashley: So, is she at this point where she’s tried everything and now, she’s looking for that nothing else does it for her? Why not? Why not take this other thing? Why not, I’ve taken everything before and I’ve lived. Why not take this other thing?

Kolby: I don’t think so though.

Jeremy: It doesn’t get presented in that way. It doesn’t get presented in the “I’ve taken these things and they no longer do anything for me”, it’s just she’s taken all these things and there’s never been an addiction or an adverse reaction to that. So, I think it’s more presenting her as this isn’t an addiction problem, this is an experimentation.

Kolby: You don’t get the impression that she’s doing it as a party drug. She’s doing it as a rationally.

Jeremy: And that seems a little odd in the story too as a party drug.

Kolby: I think that’s just the press getting it wrong. The press presents everything as a party drug.

Ashley: The one with that point though too, is if she’s never taken any drugs before, do you think someone would take this? I mean I feel like someone in her case who’s taken stuff and been like, “oh, I’m not addicted and I turned out okay.” So, I feel like there has to have been like potentially some prior drug use to willing to go this deep into taking some drug like this.

Jeremy: Again, it depends on what kind of press it’s getting though.

Ashley: Exactly.

Jeremy: How it’s presented.

Kolby: So, one other thing that I thought was an interesting parallel, which I don’t know if you guys have heard of or not, there’s the Socrates Allegory of the Cave. Where you know... where all the people are staring at the shadow of the thing, and the one person comes back in and is like, “no, you’re looking at the shadows. There’s an actual real thing behind you and you just can’t see it. Just get up and look around. And everyone’s like, “no, we’re committed to the vision of the world that we see and we’re unwilling to believe somebody who tells us that…

Jeremy: There’s something else.

Kolby: There’s more. And I feel like that’s a really similar thing with this story. Where this drug is the version of turn around and look behind you. There’s the real thing that you’re not seeing. And when I read that story, it’s really easy as a reader of this story to be like, “well of course you should turn around” …

Jeremy: Because we’re coming from that perspective.

Kolby: Right. We’re already one of the people who think we’ve already turned around. So, you look at all the people looking at the shadows thinking, “what a bunch of idiots. Only a simpleton wouldn’t turn around because you just are an idiot.”

Ashley: Now for me from a medical background, it’s the example of someone taking an experimental drug. It’s like, I would need to have, for me personally, I would need to have other people take it, write up their symptoms, side effects, all that other stuff, for me to know… to verify that it’s actually effective. I would like to see a control group that have taken it, combine their findings, and then is this legit? Are your changes similar, are they not similar? It’s easy to turn around and say, “no, this is the real thing,” but is everyone having that same experience and is that a guarantee thing?

Kolby: Did it give you pause that some of the people who took it just killed themselves? They just couldn’t take it.

Ashley: Absolutely. It makes you wonder what chemically it’s doing in the brain if anything, or what it’s doing to your synapses or your neurons, or brain balance, and then collect the findings and figure out is there, should it be readily available? Do you need to know if you should take it or not?

Kolby: It’s interesting because you’re looking at it much more like a data driven thing and I’m looking at it more like a…

Jeremy: Philosophical

Kolby: Yeah, like why wouldn’t I turn around? Why wouldn’t I turn around? Even though I could total just be wrong. You also have to think, if there were a 1000 Adam and Eve’s took this apple, a few of them would be like, “life is too hard.” Some of them would kill themselves, because they would be like, “wow, I got to go hunt stuff all the time.”

Jeremy: I’m suddenly thinking of the interesting story of the clinical trials for the people in the cave.

Kolby: Oh my gosh right

(laughter)

Kolby: They like come up, “ok, we’re going to do clinical trials. You and you and you, go step outside.”

Ashley: “You get a placebo effect.”

(laughter)

Kolby: I feel like this is the ultimate drug that can’t have a placebo, right? Like nobody can be like, “Am I on it?” No, clearly, you’re not.

Ashley: That brings us back to being more like the matrix, do you take the blue pill or the red pill. Are you ready to accept reality as it truly is as we perceive it to be, or do you just continue living life as it is? I’m turning it more into a scientific.

Kolby: No, but you’re right, it’s a red-blue pill kind of thing.

Ashley: It very much is. It very much is. What are you hoping to find out about yourself that you haven’t found in your life already? That you’ve tried every single method possible to find your own, you know mental space…

Jeremy: Your universal truth.

Ashley: Yeah.

Kolby: So, this brings us to a harder question now that we’ve sorta talked a bit, if you were in that situation, you’re Dakota in this story, do you take it?

Ashley: No! And I wrote it down. I wrote it down because there’s no scientific evidence, it’s a new drug, there’s no long-term studies completed, I’d like to know…

(laughter)

Kolby: You were a no. You were a solid no.

Ashley: I was a no. Now, would I be intrigued by it? Yes. Would I want to be around those that’ve taken it? Yes, would I want to learn from their experience? Now this is the other thing… to take Jason, he took it and he didn’t… he tried his best to explain it, but does the drug inhibit you from really revealing the whole truth?

Kolby: I think you can’t explain, like your example though with color blindness. You can’t explain color. You can be like, “well, it’s grey but it’s more grey.”

(laughter)

Kolby: I don’t know. How do you say that? Okay, Jeremy, do you take it or not?

Jeremy: I don’t think you take it at that time. I’d have to do some research.

Kolby: But you’d pocket it is what you’re saying?

(laughter)

Jeremy: Yes.

Kolby: Ah, ha, okay.

Jeremy: I’ll take this with me.

Kolby: I’m with you on that one Jeremy. One, I don’t think I’d want two people going through that experience simultaneously. I think that’s too much. But I think honestly, I would pocket it and hold it for later. I do think it’s interesting to go back to that Allegory of the cave thing. At the end, the, I think one of the last lines of the story, is she, after she takes it, she stars at the wall. At a shadow of the wall.

Jeremy: That was really nice.

Kolby: I think that was like a tip of the hat to the Allegory of the cave.

Jeremy: Where’s the best way to experience it is by looking at the shadows.

Ashley: She sits down, turns off the lights, turns on the fire, and looks at the shadows with the fires going.

Kolby: Online they said it would take half and hour to an hour for the pill to start, another hour for it to take effect, so I guess we wait… she turned the chair to face the shadows the fireplace cast on the wall, and sat back down in the chair and was told watching the shadows on the wall is the best way to experience this. I think that’s a really clear tip to, “by the way, we’re talking about the Allegory of the cave.”

Ashley: I’d like to show just how much she’s not even prepared for this, or anybody, because she’s like, “I bought a few, I don’t know how many I should’ve bought.” That’s why she had extra. She’s like, “I don’t know how many to buy”… she did it just like that by the way.

(rumbling talking)

Kolby: This cat is just like intense.

Ashley: If it turns out what Maeve says to be true, that the effects of apple are a change in your… cat move… of your whole perspective of the nature of the world around you, even after the drug worn off, does that change your opinion of the drug. So, it’s a permanent thing basically.

Kolby: So that’s the second part to the question.

Ashley: If it was temporary, would I take it? Yeah. But if it’s long term, meh.

Jeremy: But it depends.

Kolby: So, Jeremy and I both said we’d pocket the pill, you said you’d do more research. So, let’s say, just for the sake of argument, that it is all as it says presents. It really is a new way to understand the world around you. Now we’ve got some clinical trials, now are you in?

Ashley: Again, it would depend on what those clinical trials find. Can you interact with society or not?

Kolby: Can you still feed yourself basically?

Jeremy: Right, and can you only interact with those that’ve taken it? And the people in the cave are just left out?

Kolby: Here’s the thing right, let’s say you’re one of the people that’s left the cave, what would you ever have to talk about to the people in the cave? The only thing you’d have to take about is, “you’re all idiots!” You’d have no common ground. So, I assume in this case, to pre- and post-people, just wouldn’t have much to talk about except like, “Oh, that’s what you think the world is.”

Jeremy: It doesn’t necessarily appear that way with Jason’s interactions. You know they’re brief and he tries to explain it. I don’t know. Again, I would need to see more of what those interactions are and what the real effects of it are it in long term.

Kolby: You all sound pretty on the fence.

Jeremy: Yeah.

Ashley: So, you find out that, yes, it can…

Jeremy: Oh, I’m on the yes side, just leaning.

Kolby: Okay, you’re like 60-40 on this.

Ashley: This is the interesting thing, what would lean someone to take it? Do you find that your world is not whole?

Kolby: I think the truth is important.

Ashley: Okay, so for humanity to find enlightenment, does it take this artificial pill to take?

Kolby: That’s the one problem I have with the whole story.

Ashley: You can’t find within yourself. You can’t find it within your own world? You can’t find it within your biological with how you were born? You need this pill?

Jeremy: But again, that’s the whole thing with psychoactives anyways, and leading you to spiritualism and how they’re used in spiritualism.

Kolby: So that’s the one problem I had with it. If we were intended to understand this world in this way, we wouldn’t need a pill. But here’s my counter-argument to this, I was thinking about as you were talking, so this is the equivalent of the written word. So, let’s say you’re the first person to figure out how to read all the books in the world. You could make the argument, “if man were meant to read, you wouldn’t have to learn it.”

(laughter)

Kolby: And so, then you’re walking around being like, no, but these aren’t just squiggly lines, they mean something.

Jeremy: But this is good for our culture, this is good for our society.

Kolby: I understand more and maybe I’m sad in a way, but I understand more. But you’re like, “but I can’t read it so…”. “I’d been born to read if I needed to know it.”

Ashley: But what if someone is totally content with their life? Life is fantastic, life is great, they love it the way that it is. Should they just live in ignorance without taking Apple and not knowing this other aspect? Does that make them a bad person?

Jeremy: No, it’s doesn’t make them a bad person.

Kolby: It just makes them a person who believes that happiness is the goal of life. I think that’s what this come down too.

Jeremy: Whether happiness is more important than truth or knowledge or understand.

Kolby: And I think it’s really hard to take a moral judgment on either person’s choice.

Kolby: Yes.

Jeremy: Because, how can you fault someone for wanting to be okay?

Ashley: That’s true.

Kolby: Like this cat. This cat is like solid. This cat…

Ashley: I wish the cat would turn around because that face is just like nodding off, it’s doing the head bob thing. You okay? Yeah, you’re sleeping.

Kolby: The cat’s just like, “yea, I’m just thinking. I’m waiting for adoption.”

Ashley: Oh, hello. Stretches.

Kolby: Alright. That probably covers this one pretty well unless there’s anything else you guys wanted to jump on that… I think we’re roughly on…

Ashley: Oh, what are the factors that make you think Apple is or isn’t what it claims to be? Is there’s anything that makes you question?

Kolby: I think it’s legit. I mean, basic on what Jason’s saying, I think it’s so legit.

Jeremy: Right.

Kolby: Like the idea…

Ashley: One person.

Kolby: Yeah, but the idea.

Ashley: There’s a thing called placebo effect. I’m just saying.

(laughter)

Ashley: People will literally take a placebo and be like, “yeah, I totally feel better.” And we’re like, “we gave you a water pill.”

Kolby: I know I’m super bias in this, but the line you talked about with “we call the thing a wave but it’s just a form of the ocean.” I’m like… oh man, that sounds like… maybe because I grew up on Yoda and Star Wars. This idea that everything is just one thing, and you’re just seeing variation of one thing. Variations in the form of the one. Just like the wave of the ocean and it’s like, if I can understand that better, like man I want to do it. Assuming that’s really what it is.

Ashley: But again, it comes down to if can you function in this society after you’ve taken that mind-bender. Can you still function or does everyone need to take it? Does there need to be… you’re born, then you’re given apple as a baby.

Kolby: I think that’s the sequel. The sequel to this story is fast forward 30 years, and like 80% of societies taken it, and 20% of people are like, “if I was meant to see more, God would’ve made me see more.”

(laughter)

Kolby: I don’t want to learn no reading. I think that creates a schism between like… that I think is an interesting science fiction novel as well.

Ashley: So, pretend in that world that 80% of the people have taken it and 20% of people haven’t, what if there’s a side effect, a detriment, that people are just like, “whoa, the world’s all connected man” and they don’t become innovative.

Jeremy: They’d become France with the previous story about not working. Not contributing to society.

Ashley: Because they feel it’s all connected, its all one.

Jeremy: Suddenly capitalism isn’t the goal.

Ashley: So, in that case, the 20% that didn’t take it are the ones that are building, using tools, who’s to say? I’m just putting it out there.

Kolby: That’s putting a cultural, sort of standard, on a new society really. That’s like saying, “I work this way, you became different, so I don’t really value….” I don’t know. I think it’s an interesting question.

Jeremy: It asks interesting questions for sure.

Kolby: I like this story more than the last one. I can’t lie. Alright, so if you want to read this story, you can go online. You’ve been watching After Dinner Conversation, short stories for longer discussions.

Ashley: Something we missed, write a comment, pose your own questions, this is meant to derive more conversation, it’s not meant to put one person over another, it’s just to evolve thought. Heck, read it with your friends and sit down after dinner and talk about it yourselves.

Kolby: Talk about it, post comments, questions about the things we got right, got wrong, forgot, didn’t think about. You know, we’re not perfect. We’re not on apple.

(laughter)

Ashley: It made me really hungry after this. I could really go for an apple right now.

(laughter)

Kolby: Next week, what is our story?

Ashley: This I Do For You, by Margaret… I can’t speak her last name… Karmazin.

Kolby: Yeah, “This I Do For You”. This one has got a spoiler; you can’t really tell what it’s about. It’s about a kid growing up that’s called to make a sacrifice for the community and again, it asks a pretty interesting ethical question.

Jeremy: It’s an interesting story, I like this one.

Ashley: Not just with her, but her mom and the community as a whole.

Kolby: For next week. And we’ll be back at the cat café next weekend again with a new cat probably.

Ashley: But this one’s up for adoption if you’re watching this and this cat is still around, this cat is awesome. This one just like to cuddle. Sorry.

Kolby: Alright, we’ll see you next week.

Ashley: I like this one!

Kolby: Bye.